|
Post by davycannonhound on Feb 21, 2019 21:17:47 GMT
So, I've been thinking. Lesser warbeasts are easily spammable due to their low PC, but that can sometimes make them weaker. But not for the reasons you'd think. Usually this is due to their ANIMI. Having lots of ANIMI batteries both for the Warlock and the warbeast itself can be problematic if they have the wrong (read: too strong) animi. As such some lessers get shoehorned in with animi that are situational, at best. So, I got to thinking: what if lesser warbeasts didn't have animi, and instead just had a special ability that required them to be forced (for example, the Shredder in Legion might get something similar to Rabid. Not saying thats even balanced or even what it needs/wants, but I wanted to just throw out an example of what I was thinking) or take a special action for? Or even just have their ANIMI be a native ability (e.g. the Shredder would get Relentless Charge natively). Obviously this would be a major overhaul for a few Hordes factions, Legion especially, but I think it would open up overall design space for lesser warbeasts. I wanted to see what the public opinion was on this, and see if I had hit a potential homebrew gold mine or if this is just more pointless wishlisting on my part. Anyways, discuss! Edit: I must've really screwed my writing when I tried to introduce the concept, cause so far no one seems to quite understand what I'm suggesting. 😅 I don't know how else to explain it though.
|
|
|
Post by chrisbatson on Feb 21, 2019 21:34:51 GMT
Do any of them have this problem? They dont seem to in my meta.
|
|
|
Post by dogganmguest on Feb 22, 2019 2:23:47 GMT
What even is the supposed problem? There's only a claim that it exists, no mention of what it is supposed to be. Why not fix the problem with warjacks? You know the one.
|
|
|
Post by greytemplar on Feb 22, 2019 3:05:07 GMT
None of the Lesser Warbeasts have particularly powerful Animi. Certainly none that would cause an issue with being spammed.
Agonizer has Repulsion, which is probably the most technically strong. But it takes all of the Agonizer's fury which means you aren't using any of its other abilities that turn.
Stinger has Counterblast. Which is... Ok on a beast with only a pow 10. Sure, its a Spray, but its rat4 and can't boost outside of activation...
Reptile Hound. Snacking on a stick. Meh. Not really abusable, more useful for the Reptile hounds themselves.
Razor Boar. Self only counter-charge... P+S12 mat6 attacks out of activation... Meh.
Harrier and Crabbit: Self only Dodge. Sure, its nice for the caster. But its not really an abusive thing just because you can have a ton of them. The Crabbits will be killing themselves off anyway with Shield Guards. And since when do Legion players take a bunch of Harriers?
Shredders. Self only Relentless charge... I highly doubt many Legion players are spamming this one when they'd rather take another attack with Flank instead.
|
|
|
Post by davycannonhound on Feb 22, 2019 6:41:30 GMT
None of the Lesser Warbeasts have particularly powerful Animi. Certainly none that would cause an issue with being spammed. Agonizer has Repulsion, which is probably the most technically strong. But it takes all of the Agonizer's fury which means you aren't using any of its other abilities that turn. Stinger has Counterblast. Which is... Ok on a beast with only a pow 10. Sure, its a Spray, but its rat4 and can't boost outside of activation... Reptile Hound. Snacking on a stick. Meh. Not really abusable, more useful for the Reptile hounds themselves. Razor Boar. Self only counter-charge... P+S12 mat6 attacks out of activation... Meh. Harrier and Crabbit: Self only Dodge. Sure, its nice for the caster. But its not really an abusive thing just because you can have a ton of them. The Crabbits will be killing themselves off anyway with Shield Guards. And since when do Legion players take a bunch of Harriers? Shredders. Self only Relentless charge... I highly doubt many Legion players are spamming this one when they'd rather take another attack with Flank instead. I really only say spammable due to how cheap they are. You can easily take a swarm of lessers if you really wanted to without investing a ton. Sure, you may not have as many heavies or even lights, but the amount of bodies with access to forcing is certainly there. The concept was honestly just a thought I had, and I wondered if removing animi (and therefore not worrying about the controlling warlock) was an interesting route to try to take them in. The Harrier and Crabbit stand to lose the most value here, but lessers like the Shredder and Stinger just plain don't want their animi half the time. Razor Boar and Reptile Hound are arguable, but at least in the case of the Razor Boar countercharge could easily be a native ability, as could relentless charge on the Shredder. I'm not trying to say that lesser beasts are BAD (an impression I may have accidentally given in my original post), but it was something I was puzzling over and wanted to open up to the larger public.
|
|
|
Post by davycannonhound on Feb 22, 2019 6:42:52 GMT
Do any of them have this problem? They dont seem to in my meta. (copy pasted due to the fact that I just got off work and am tired, will likely elaborate later tomorrow if anyone wishes) I really only say spammable due to how cheap they are. You can easily take a swarm of lessers if you really wanted to without investing a ton. Sure, you may not have as many heavies or even lights, but the amount of bodies with access to forcing is certainly there. The concept was honestly just a thought I had, and I wondered if removing animi (and therefore not worrying about the controlling warlock) was an interesting route to try to take them in. The Harrier and Crabbit stand to lose the most value here, but lessers like the Shredder and Stinger just plain don't want their animi half the time. Razor Boar and Reptile Hound are arguable, but at least in the case of the Razor Boar countercharge could easily be a native ability, as could relentless charge on the Shredder. I'm not trying to say that lesser beasts are BAD (an impression I may have accidentally given in my original post), but it was something I was puzzling over and wanted to open up to the larger public.
|
|
|
Post by davycannonhound on Feb 22, 2019 6:45:25 GMT
What even is the supposed problem? There's only a claim that it exists, no mention of what it is supposed to be. Why not fix the problem with warjacks? You know the one. (copy pasted due to the fact that I just got off work and am tired, will likely elaborate later tomorrow if anyone wishes) I really only say spammable due to how cheap they are. You can easily take a swarm of lessers if you really wanted to without investing a ton. Sure, you may not have as many heavies or even lights, but the amount of bodies with access to forcing is certainly there. The concept was honestly just a thought I had, and I wondered if removing animi (and therefore not worrying about the controlling warlock) was an interesting route to try to take them in. The Harrier and Crabbit stand to lose the most value here, but lessers like the Shredder and Stinger just plain don't want their animi half the time. Razor Boar and Reptile Hound are arguable, but at least in the case of the Razor Boar countercharge could easily be a native ability, as could relentless charge on the Shredder. I'm not trying to say that lesser beasts are BAD (an impression I may have accidentally given in my original post), but it was something I was puzzling over and wanted to open up to the larger public. And, just to make sure we're on the same page, could you go ahead and say what the problem for warjacks is?
|
|
|
Post by Charistoph on Feb 22, 2019 14:09:53 GMT
Question, do you know what the average Fury capacity of a Lesser is? That is best limit on Warbeasts, both in how spammable their Animi is and how much/well they can Boost.
|
|
|
Post by copperflame on Feb 22, 2019 16:08:20 GMT
I know the average fury for Legion warbeasts is 2 (yea! I'm useful). Shredder spam (was?) a fun list to bring here and there but was never competitive. Shredder spam is a bit less 'powerful' now due to the changes to MK3.
I like the idea of 'lessers' are not powerful enough to have an animus. Maybe that would make them easier to balance and can give a bit more look into adjusting a few of them.
|
|
gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
|
Post by gordo on Feb 22, 2019 16:39:47 GMT
Wait, SHOULDN'T lessers be spammable? Like, they are cheap and FA:U for a reason. Shouldn't running multiple be feasible?
I don't think it's the Animus on them that is the problem. The problem is that they cost the same as a solo, do much less even with boosting, but still drain your fury reserves. Oh and their animii are usually so bad/niche as to be entirely irrelevant.
Have you noticed that the only semi recently designed lesser, the Crabbit, isn't a burning dumpster fire? They were never broken ever but every other Hordes faction was like "I WANTS IT, MY PRECIOUS". Because that's how awful the other factions' lessers are. (Not counting the Agonizer, but that's a given)
|
|
|
Post by davycannonhound on Feb 22, 2019 17:31:46 GMT
I know the average fury for Legion warbeasts is 2 (yea! I'm useful). Shredder spam (was?) a fun list to bring here and there but was never competitive. Shredder spam is a bit less 'powerful' now due to the changes to MK3. I like the idea of 'lessers' are not powerful enough to have an animus. Maybe that would make them easier to balance and can give a bit more look into adjusting a few of them. See, thats what I was wondering. Lessers never seem to have enough fury (or threshold) to justify their animi half the time. So, I wondered if cutting out animi would let them gain access to better abilities as a whole without worrying about exploitation by the warlock themselves.
|
|
|
Post by davycannonhound on Feb 22, 2019 17:35:05 GMT
Wait, SHOULDN'T lessers be spammable? Like, they are cheap and FA:U for a reason. Shouldn't running multiple be feasible? I don't think it's the Animus on them that is the problem. The problem is that they cost the same as a solo, do much less even with boosting, but still drain your fury reserves. Oh and their animii are usually so bad/niche as to be entirely irrelevant. Have you noticed that the only semi recently designed lesser, the Crabbit, isn't a burning dumpster fire? They were never broken ever but every other Hordes faction was like "I WANTS IT, MY PRECIOUS". Because that's how awful the other factions' lessers are. (Not counting the Agonizer, but that's a given) Oh yeah, I totally do think they should be spammable. But because they cost so little, typically the animi end up being pretty poor (or too expensive for them to want to cost, judging by repulsion on the agonizor. I can't say that for certain though, a Skorne player would have to edjucate me on the matter). Thats why I was wondering if animi should be cut out completely, in order to give the lessers access to more interesting and more powerful abilities without worrying about the warlock using said abilities on themselves.
|
|
|
Post by greytemplar on Feb 22, 2019 17:40:59 GMT
I know the average fury for Legion warbeasts is 2 (yea! I'm useful). Shredder spam (was?) a fun list to bring here and there but was never competitive. Shredder spam is a bit less 'powerful' now due to the changes to MK3. I like the idea of 'lessers' are not powerful enough to have an animus. Maybe that would make them easier to balance and can give a bit more look into adjusting a few of them. See, thats what I was wondering. Lessers never seem to have enough fury (or threshold) to justify their animi half the time. So, I wondered if cutting out animi would let them gain access to better abilities as a whole without worrying about exploitation by the warlock themselves. But again, none of the animi that exist are really exploitable by a warlock. Without exception, all the Lesser's animi are between Meh and Garbage.
Lessers only have 2 Fury across the board, and that is good for what they are. Especially since several of the factions have access to free charges.
They're cheap bodies with access to 2 fury each. Thats perfectly fine. Point for point compared to other beasts, they generate more Fury. Which can be good and bad. More fury means more forcing, but each warlock can only handle so much Fury generation.
|
|
|
Post by greytemplar on Feb 22, 2019 17:46:35 GMT
Wait, SHOULDN'T lessers be spammable? Like, they are cheap and FA:U for a reason. Shouldn't running multiple be feasible? I don't think it's the Animus on them that is the problem. The problem is that they cost the same as a solo, do much less even with boosting, but still drain your fury reserves. Oh and their animii are usually so bad/niche as to be entirely irrelevant. Have you noticed that the only semi recently designed lesser, the Crabbit, isn't a burning dumpster fire? They were never broken ever but every other Hordes faction was like "I WANTS IT, MY PRECIOUS". Because that's how awful the other factions' lessers are. (Not counting the Agonizer, but that's a given) Oh yeah, I totally do think they should be spammable. But because they cost so little, typically the animi end up being pretty poor (or too expensive for them to want to cost, judging by repulsion on the agonizor. I can't say that for certain though, a Skorne player would have to edjucate me on the matter). Thats why I was wondering if animi should be cut out completely, in order to give the lessers access to more interesting and more powerful abilities without worrying about the warlock using said abilities on themselves. Oh I get it now.
You want lessers to be stronger to encourage spamming. The real reason people don't do that isn't really because of the Lessers themselves. Its more because of the fury mechanics. Warlocks simply can't have a huge amount of fury sitting out there or they're losing a huge chunk of their army.
Take shredder spam. Flank(Legion Warbeast) is actually very very nasty. A bunch of charging shredders will destroy stuff. The problem is that they do that once, the enemy kills a bunch of them, and the survivors frenzy on each other. Because the Warlock simply doesn't have the fury management to handle that much. Its not really a Shredder or Lesser problem, its a limitation of the mechanic itself.
|
|
|
Post by davycannonhound on Feb 22, 2019 18:07:04 GMT
Oh yeah, I totally do think they should be spammable. But because they cost so little, typically the animi end up being pretty poor (or too expensive for them to want to cost, judging by repulsion on the agonizor. I can't say that for certain though, a Skorne player would have to edjucate me on the matter). Thats why I was wondering if animi should be cut out completely, in order to give the lessers access to more interesting and more powerful abilities without worrying about the warlock using said abilities on themselves. Oh I get it now.
You want lessers to be stronger to encourage spamming. The real reason people don't do that isn't really because of the Lessers themselves. Its more because of the fury mechanics. Warlocks simply can't have a huge amount of fury sitting out there or they're losing a huge chunk of their army.
Take shredder spam. Flank(Legion Warbeast) is actually very very nasty. A bunch of charging shredders will destroy stuff. The problem is that they do that once, the enemy kills a bunch of them, and the survivors frenzy on each other. Because the Warlock simply doesn't have the fury management to handle that much. Its not really a Shredder or Lesser problem, its a limitation of the mechanic itself.
Yeah, more or less. I like the idea of swarms, and I even like the idea of lessers having some sort of force ability depending on what they need to do (the jump on crabbits for more maneuverability, for instance). But, if the ability were an animi... well, guess what, the warlock has access to a super strong ability for super cheap. To remedy that, I wondered if cutting animi from lesser warbeasts completely would be an interesting alternative and could open up design space for the lessers.
|
|