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Post by sand20go on Feb 14, 2019 14:36:48 GMT
This is good, lots of lists that we don't get to see often in the meta that look like they could be good. sand20go What exact build for Goreshade4 do you have in mind, sure he has a lot of arcane vortex, but it's very rare that all the models of a unit are in arcane vortex range, the adjunct pretty much fixes the cloudwall, all you need is some shooting to take care of the Lys healer (or spot removal like outriders) nothing in Goreshade4's kit actually helps his dude be immune to frost. Sure Goreshade has a couple of good tools, but saying he's a hard counter seems like a stretch to me. Double sentinals + UA Top of 1 cloud wall (not mandatory) /run to just outside of max sorshsca range for FG. Bottom of 1/top of 2 mini feat with the UA providing vengeance triggers up front. Mini feat precludes the models being stationary. Bottom of 2/top 3 you now have nearly a full boat (absent snippers) of Double sentinels in your face with spot recursion. Then, if you brought melee sorscha he feats and you get to be made stationary after each hit. Gore4, loaded with souls, then goes and does things. While just one turn, the UA's mini feat and then Gore's natural resistance effectively makes the group play like a northkin army. Oh and Dauntless is a problem for unbuffed ponies because with just wall of steel you need 9's to crack armor with the sprays. It isn't a horrible list to play AC (Supressing fire) or Jaws (widows) into. Vlad2 an almost counter to the counter in some ways. But it is a problem if you are in a retribution heavy meta - something likely to be seen depending on the competitiveness of your crowd cause the sled is really really good.
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Post by auraco on Feb 14, 2019 15:03:01 GMT
hocestbellum Interesting legion of steel list for sure, how are you liking the conquest with that list? Any special reason for a colossal? (I assume the bit after that isn't aimed at me, as I can't take A&H) It's doing well, but I've only played a few games. There was some logic behind it, though: generally with Sorscha1 I would take something like double Destroyer to help with the shooting and assassination games, but I was finding that if I needed something to do properly heavy lifting the P17 one-attack jack just wasn't cutting it. I ran Juggers and Marauders, but she just doesn't have the focus to make them sing whilst also using her kit. So I was looking for something that could hit really hard, had some firepower, and didn't really need much focus from Sorscha. Colossals seemed to fit the bill pretty well. In theory, they hit hard enough to kill most Battle Engines with just their initial attacks (it's at least 50% to kill any of the ARM 19 ones with less than 30 hp, and with one focus/free charge it's 90% + to kill any of them). And if I needed to absolutely smash something, BC and +2 focus gives you a decent shot at wrecking anything in the game. On the firepower side they both have multiple shots of decent power. They also ignore a lot of the more annoying things in the game. I ended up going for Conquest over Viktor because of Creeping Barrage: the SR2018 central LoS-blocking terrain means that a lot of the time I can only truly mess up one flank at a time and a 9" wall of P10 can really help hold down the other flank. Plus, whilst I would never rely on it, sometimes Crit Dev will wreak absolute havoc. So far it's worked out well. That said, I am really damn bad at maneuvering that huge base! I don't know if that's just me being rubbish with them or a general thing; I've only played 5 games with a colossal ever. So it does feel clunky. But I feel like there's good options with the Adjunct, as giving a model with 5 ranged attacks magical weapons and Stealth-b-gone seems delicious. Sound logic, I haven't played much of the conquest since the central LOS blocking terrain became a thing, but it does make for a big zone of denial. Huge base are already hard to maneuver but spd 4 on the conquest makes it even harder. It gets some time getting used to. The conquest is indeed a great target for guidance. I'm not much of a fan of legion of steel, I think it's fallen behind with all the cool CID stuff that's been comming out but this list sounds interesting. I wonder if the threat of putting Sorscha1 on the table is enough to scare Tharn away from the table. I'd really like to use Sofya one day, but she came out after the fall of legion of steel and I never really got an occasion to put her on the table. Having ragman and the adjunct in the list will clearly feel very good, ragman is a great force multiplier for the pikemen and he likes them as sac pawn targets.
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Post by auraco on Feb 14, 2019 15:07:29 GMT
This is good, lots of lists that we don't get to see often in the meta that look like they could be good. sand20go What exact build for Goreshade4 do you have in mind, sure he has a lot of arcane vortex, but it's very rare that all the models of a unit are in arcane vortex range, the adjunct pretty much fixes the cloudwall, all you need is some shooting to take care of the Lys healer (or spot removal like outriders) nothing in Goreshade4's kit actually helps his dude be immune to frost. Sure Goreshade has a couple of good tools, but saying he's a hard counter seems like a stretch to me. Double sentinals + UA Top of 1 cloud wall (not mandatory) /run to just outside of max sorshsca range for FG. Bottom of 1/top of 2 mini feat with the UA providing vengeance triggers up front. Mini feat precludes the models being stationary. Bottom of 2/top 3 you now have nearly a full boat (absent snippers) of Double sentinels in your face with spot recursion. Then, if you brought melee sorscha he feats and you get to be made stationary after each hit. Gore4, loaded with souls, then goes and does things. While just one turn, the UA's mini feat and then Gore's natural resistance effectively makes the group play like a northkin army. Oh and Dauntless is a problem for unbuffed ponies because with just wall of steel you need 9's to crack armor with the sprays. It isn't a horrible list to play AC (Supressing fire) or Jaws (widows) into. Vlad2 an almost counter to the counter in some ways. But it is a problem if you are in a retribution heavy meta - something likely to be seen depending on the competitiveness of your crowd cause the sled is really really good. The key component I wasn't thinking about was the Sentinel mini feat, it does buy him a turn, which is more than enough to screw up Sorscha1's plan. It would probably end up being a case of drop the other list than Sorscha1 here. Speaking of which, which caster would you guys pair up with Sorscha1? Since she is suppose to be the main list here, the other list can be a bit more focused in what it wants to do.
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Post by sand20go on Feb 14, 2019 15:31:34 GMT
Double sentinals + UA Top of 1 cloud wall (not mandatory) /run to just outside of max sorshsca range for FG. Bottom of 1/top of 2 mini feat with the UA providing vengeance triggers up front. Mini feat precludes the models being stationary. Bottom of 2/top 3 you now have nearly a full boat (absent snippers) of Double sentinels in your face with spot recursion. Then, if you brought melee sorscha he feats and you get to be made stationary after each hit. Gore4, loaded with souls, then goes and does things. While just one turn, the UA's mini feat and then Gore's natural resistance effectively makes the group play like a northkin army. Oh and Dauntless is a problem for unbuffed ponies because with just wall of steel you need 9's to crack armor with the sprays. It isn't a horrible list to play AC (Supressing fire) or Jaws (widows) into. Vlad2 an almost counter to the counter in some ways. But it is a problem if you are in a retribution heavy meta - something likely to be seen depending on the competitiveness of your crowd cause the sled is really really good. The key component I wasn't thinking about was the Sentinel mini feat, it does buy him a turn, which is more than enough to screw up Sorscha1's plan. It would probably end up being a case of drop the other list than Sorscha1 here. Speaking of which, which caster would you guys pair up with Sorscha1? Since she is suppose to be the main list here, the other list can be a bit more focused in what it wants to do. Given the above.....(and northkin though that seems less important currently; where have ALL the Northkin players gone....) what about your favorite jaws caster with S0. So Karchev, Butcher3, Strakov, (vlad 1?) and then the full widow boat (and kell?) to really keep single wound crap honest. Definately Rags and possibly A&H+V. See if you like it into this - a good Armor brick that leverages bulwark/Krea on the approach to threaten with Molik Karn. conflictchamber.com/?c9201b_-0Lnb6r6U4xm_5J5Gcv5UmBSkorne Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Imperial Warhost [Makeda 3] Makeda & the Exalted Court [+25] - Agonizer [0(6)] - Archidon [10] - Basilisk Krea [0(7)] - Desert Hydra [35] - Molik Karn [19] - Titan Gladiator [15] Mortitheurge Willbreaker [0(4)] Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5] Supreme Guardian [16] For those interested - Bulkwark is +2 Def against Range and can't be knocked down. Krea is +2 Def and +2 Arm against Range. So the "strategy" (if we can glorify what PP has done here with that term) is to Rush Molik Karn with titan. Molik Karn then runs to use the LOS blocking terrain to shut down charge angels. HE then runs/flies the archidon to be B2B. Krea moves up and gets its Aura out. M3 casts Bulwark and walks/fail charges. The 2 big things hold flanks. MK is def 17 against shooting, Wide the sidestep bond and a walking threat of 10 (13 on the charge) he is going to out threat a bunch of our stuff. Obviously with incite he poses an assassination threat. And we haven't event talked about the 5 initials and 4 Fury Hydra. So figure out if you have a list which feels at least 50/50.
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Post by auraco on Feb 14, 2019 16:08:27 GMT
Wouldn't this be the kind of list for which we are building Sorscha1 though? Nothing in Makeda's kit prevents her from being stationnary, only the supreme guardian helps against spells and he can't be everywhere at once (he also has very few souls available to him in this list). So stacking debuff and hitting Molik and the Hydra in the face seems like an option. Stationnary Molik is usually a very sad Molik.
As for protecting Sorscha's stuff the Hydra is actually very vulnerable to wind ravager if he wants to use his sprays and the list really lacks spot removal. Makeda can pacman her way through your army if you're not careful, but reavers are usually pretty spaced to prevent berzerk on each other, so she shouldn't be able to kill all your army. Makeda's Stonebuddy can't shake off and have low defense, they seem like an ideal target for freezing grip, they can also be in the way once they are stationnary.
I only have one game against makeda3 and it was a different list, so I'm mostly working on theory here, but it doesn't sound all that bad for Sorscha here. There is also the option of Wind Rush, Feat, hit Makeda with auto hitting pow 13 shatter attack and then to follow it up with all the magic and shooting you can cram in a stationnary caster. Makeda3 can usually bully the board with her high defensive stats but her weakness to stationnary does work great for us here.
As far as pairing goes, Karchev jaws with Sorscha0 does sound like a good idea. I'm pretty excited about getting that on the table.
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Post by borderprince on Feb 14, 2019 16:52:33 GMT
sand20go What exact build for Goreshade4 do you have in mind, ... Double sentinals + UA Top of 1 cloud wall (not mandatory) /run to just outside of max sorshsca range for FG. Bottom of 1/top of 2 mini feat with the UA providing vengeance triggers up front. Mini feat precludes the models being stationary. Bottom of 2/top 3 you now have nearly a full boat (absent snippers) of Double sentinels in your face with spot recursion. Then, if you brought melee sorscha he feats and you get to be made stationary after each hit. Gore4, loaded with souls, then goes and does things. Of the lists being discussed so far, the Legion of Steel with Conquest looks like it can at least reduce the effectiveness of this - Creeping Barrage won't really deal with Sentinels with both Dauntless Resolve + mini-feat (ARM 21), but Dauntless Resolve can only be one one unit, so you might be able to use that to slow down the advance/force a mini-feat to get through the Creeping Barrage, then leaving the Sentinels open to Sorscha1's freezing (possibly as a counter-feat to Goreshade4?). Certainly not perfect, but in theory it helps. Happily no one here really plays Ret (good, as I really don't like the models), so I can't test, but it does bring out the possible utility of Conquest
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Post by jonnyboy on Feb 14, 2019 17:34:49 GMT
For my local tournament coming up this weekend I'm paring S1 WGK with V2 AC. I'm hoping to drop AC into basically everything i don't think S1 could handle. Namely cryx, trolls, and maaaybe CG. The idea is that S1 will scare off med base infantry counters while being able to play into most things. AC will handle serious beast/warjack spam and anyting im unsure of.
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Post by jonnyboy on Feb 14, 2019 21:39:02 GMT
Making some more lists with S1 and the adjunct. I am onboard for S1 with a colossal, im goin victor just for the amount of firepower and the list already handles mass low arm models. The colossal and BE are great 'rocks' the list can sit on. The colossal is this huge distracting threat if you put it down the middle of the table. I can see it causing LOS issues though.
War Room Army
Khador - 03 - S1WGK (v3)
Theme: Winter Guard Kommand 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Kommander Sorscha - WJ: +29 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 4 - Victor - PC: 34 (Battlegroup Points Used: 29)
Winter Guard Gun Carriage - PC: 17
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 4
Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 5 Grunts: 8 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 Winter Guard Infantry - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6 - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 0 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 Winter Guard Infantry - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6 - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 0 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 Winter Guard Field Gun Crew - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 0 Winter Guard Field Gun Crew - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 4 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3
THEME: Winter Guard Kommand ---
GENERATED : 02/14/2019 16:38:49 BUILD ID : 2071.19-02-05
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vlad
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 53
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Post by vlad on Feb 15, 2019 2:27:28 GMT
I see people wanting to put Aiyanna & Holt in Wolves of Winter with Sorscha1 (or in fact any other caster), but I do not really understand the rationale. What problem can 6x P+S 16 weapon masters solve that 12x P+S 14 weapon masters cannot? What units have such high ARM and box numbers that P+S 12 weapon masters cannot deal with it (Iron Fleshed Shocktroopers?!)?
Also, what pairing options does using A&H in WoW with Sorscha1 open up that would not be available otherwise? For example, if I build Sorscha1 WoW with A&H, does that mean that I do not need to think about ARM cracking in my other list? Most of our casters have a way to buff damage, and except WKG all of our themes pack a good punch in their "counts for free card" choices. These choices, combined with the common damage buffs we have, usually mean all our lists will be able to deal with high ARM unless using unit heavy versions of WGK.
Considering the above, I see A&H in WoW as somewhat of an overkill that can be situationally used to allow pairing with WGK lists than cannot handle high ARM. It's an irony that such lists usually tend to be piloted by Sorscha1 herself.
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Post by sand20go on Feb 15, 2019 3:08:42 GMT
I see people wanting to put Aiyanna & Holt in Wolves of Winter with Sorscha1 (or in fact any other caster), but I do not really understand the rationale. What problem can 6x P+S 16 weapon masters solve that 12x P+S 14 weapon masters cannot? What units have such high ARM and box numbers that P+S 12 weapon masters cannot deal with it (Iron Fleshed Shocktroopers?!)? Also, what pairing options does using A&H in WoW with Sorscha1 open up that would not be available otherwise? For example, if I build Sorscha1 WoW with A&H, does that mean that I do not need to think about ARM cracking in my other list? Most of our casters have a way to buff damage, and except WKG all of our themes pack a good punch in their "counts for free card" choices. These choices, combined with the common damage buffs we have, usually mean all our lists will be able to deal with high ARM unless using unit heavy versions of WGK. Considering the above, I see A&H in WoW as somewhat of an overkill that can be situationally used to allow pairing with WGK lists than cannot handle high ARM. It's an irony that such lists usually tend to be piloted by Sorscha1 herself. Well since you asked..... Here is what buy or boost tells me about sending doomies into a Supreme Guardian (yeah, we have THAT many skorne players in my meta) 5 unbuffed on the charge have a 58% of killing it At Pow 14 that goes up to 87%; Just four is at 63% At Pow 16 4 of em charging goes up to 90.7: Just 3 49% So why you CONSIDER bringing A&H+V is for how much work for you to win you think your doomies have to do into hard targets like that. If mostly what your doom reavers need to do is threaten infantry and you have good survival tech than I am not sure you need em. However, if you anticipate losing a lot on the approach you might want them - because as the above shows just 4 of em get into the thing it is dead. Anyway, that is the math. I am not sure it is a clear cut answer - thus why people are contemplating it.
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wags
Junior Strategist
Posts: 102
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Post by wags on Feb 15, 2019 10:25:37 GMT
The part where A+H, and really most reaver lists, fall apart against the supreme guardian is that the guardian is just going to arcane vortex the kiss or brittle frost. Doom reavers are more appropriately costed than they used to be, but lets not kid ourselves, they still aren't a cheap spam unit. They are priced like above average models. unless you have an amazing delivery caster or they are legitimately an all melee army, you really can't afford the 12 points for kiss, you need that to be a unit of doomies.
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vlad
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 53
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Post by vlad on Feb 15, 2019 16:18:19 GMT
The part where A+H, and really most reaver lists, fall apart against the supreme guardian is that the guardian is just going to arcane vortex the kiss or brittle frost. Doom reavers are more appropriately costed than they used to be, but lets not kid ourselves, they still aren't a cheap spam unit. They are priced like above average models. unless you have an amazing delivery caster or they are legitimately an all melee army, you really can't afford the 12 points for kiss, you need that to be a unit of doomies. I also feel this way. I’d rather send two waves of 4-6 Reavers in without buffs, so that the second unit gets the work done. If huge bases are an issue, I think a set of Marauders might be a better answer than investing in A&H.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Feb 15, 2019 18:31:37 GMT
The part where A+H, and really most reaver lists, fall apart against the supreme guardian is that the guardian is just going to arcane vortex the kiss or brittle frost. Doom reavers are more appropriately costed than they used to be, but lets not kid ourselves, they still aren't a cheap spam unit. They are priced like above average models. unless you have an amazing delivery caster or they are legitimately an all melee army, you really can't afford the 12 points for kiss, you need that to be a unit of doomies. I also feel this way. I’d rather send two waves of 4-6 Reavers in without buffs, so that the second unit gets the work done. If huge bases are an issue, I think a set of Marauders might be a better answer than investing in A&H. This is why my original suggestion was this: Kommander Sorscha - WJ: +29 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 0 - Beast 09 - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Marauder - PC: 11 Fenris - PC: 8 - Fenris (Continued) Koldun Lord - PC: 0 Koldun Lord - PC: 0 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Greylord Escort - PC: 3 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Greylord Escort - PC: 3 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - OR Min Outriders: 10 Some others have commented that it takes too long for the jacks to get up field, or that it’s too easy to play around a marauder. However, if we want a Sorscha list to swing both ways (into infantry swarms and take on bricks and huge bases), then I feel like you really want that 2nd jack and going with twin Marauders makes it really hard for your opponent to deal with both.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Feb 15, 2019 21:02:53 GMT
Is it that easy to play around a marauder with a caster with Boundless Charge? The marauder can easily use forests or clouds to hide and make life difficult for huge bases if they want to be relevant in scenario.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by hocestbellum on Feb 15, 2019 21:21:02 GMT
Is it that easy to play around a marauder with a caster with Boundless Charge? The marauder can easily use forests or clouds to hide and make life difficult for huge bases if they want to be relevant in scenario. Cheers, Dave One is, yeah. Mostly because one is never enough. Point-for-point a Marauder has to be just about the most efficient thing for damaging huge bases, but in absolute damage terms a single Marauder is actually pretty unlikely to destroy most battle engines, let alone colossals. They work really well with casters like Vlad1 and Karchev because things like free charges and battlegroup damage buffs massively force-multiply. Just taking one with Sorscha doesn't really cut it.
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