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Post by auraco on Feb 13, 2019 20:58:55 GMT
I was discussing with some of the local Khador player about how Sorscha1 dictates pairing process, especially these days with a lot of armies going for 60+ points of infantry to get as many free cards as possible, like Tharn and Exalted for example. So the theory is that if the other guy see Sorscha1 in your paring, he will not drop his infantry heavy list just in case you actually drop Sorscha1 there, it's kind of a list chicken but I think Sorscha1 has the kind of kit to pull off more than just a list chicken, it most probably will dictate what the other guy drop and I think she pushes it far enough that people won't even want to risk dropping the bad kind of list against her.
That being said, Sorscha1 doesn't have a damage buff and traditionnaly suffers againt battlegroup or battle engine heavy list. With the adjunct opening a merc spot for Alexia2 or Ragman, and the cornucopia stuff having a damage buff included in the theme, would it be possible to build a Sorscha1 list that can tackle theses kind of heavy battlegroup list that she doesn't usually want to see? A list that can rely on Sorscha1's kit to go against infantry heavy, because Sorscha is naturally good against it, and can also go up againt battlegroup heavy list.
Think she can pull it off? The new wolves stuff is great for her, but I'm also thinking Armored corps with an adjunct and ragman, the adjunct helps her spellcasting and ragman does make the man o war hit hard and can just sac pawn off any shot that comes his way. I could even see an argument being made for legion of steel in that kind of build, now that Sorscha can have spell support and a damage buff at the same time.
Does that make sense or I am going too far in the jank tank on this one?
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on Feb 13, 2019 21:57:22 GMT
I still like her with winter guard. She brings a lot to them, and they can pump out heavier damage with jacks to back them up
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Post by sand20go on Feb 13, 2019 22:28:16 GMT
Hmmm....possibly. THere is, however, one possible flaw to this strategy which will, of course, vary with metas but is an important one for your list pairing thinking.....
Gore4 (with Sentinals)
Now sure - that is ONE caster/faction. But that combo shuts down S1 REALLY hard and you are now left with some potentially AWFUL ret. matchups.
COnsider - a Gore4 double sentinals build and then a Forges with Garreth 2 (how in the HELL did that thing get through any sort of legitimate play testing boggles the mind. Essentially Caine2 with RtW)
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Post by hocestbellum on Feb 13, 2019 22:40:32 GMT
I tried her a bit with Legion of Steel last year; it was pretty excellent. I was leaning into Precision Strike: A frozen jack with no cortex is basically useless. A frozen beast with no spirit can be healed by the warcaster, but it can't shake because that's Control Phase. And you have a whole army of KD effects to be extra annoying; it effectively takes three fury across two turns (Heal, then two shakes next turn) to undo what you so trivially bestow.
The Iron Fangs themselves love being DEF14 into Gunlines, Sorscha loves that they have pathfinder and don't really need her help. They hit hard enough to dispose of all the infantry pretty easily, and they can cheerfully do the 10-12 damage required to cripple a warnoun with precision strike. The lack of guns in the theme is a pain, but Conquest seemed to do the trick.
That said, Battle Engines would be annoying. I didn't face any in my minimal testing, but loads of them are ARM19-20, and Precision Strike is useless. I only faced one colossal (Helios) which basically doesn't count; against the more threatening ones I imagine I would face similar problems with not enough punch. But all of this was pre-Adjunct, so I had Sylys. But now I could take Ragman, so I'd be interested to try anew.
I considered Marauders instead of Conquest; great for huge bases, and the ability to freeze things and then slam them wherever seemed handy, but I've got no testing on that. In the perfect scenario you could freeze and slam a warnoun and if it wants to retaliate it needs one to shake Stationary, one to shake KD, and maybe one to charge. That's not leaving much to do anything with.
I think the idea has legs. Perhaps one day I'll get to test it some more.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Feb 14, 2019 3:33:42 GMT
Yes, I think the idea has legs. The question is, what’s the right balance for the build, and do you really want it to be able to drop into a hard gunline, or just infantry spam with some guns?
Wolves: Double Koldun Lords are a bit of a game changer. Since you’re bringing Beast 09, you should be able to get them upfield safely. POW 14 weaponmasters and POW 18 Marauders (before you were planning to take on heavy armor, you brought one, but maybe it’s worth bringing 2), let alone POW 21 Beast 09 attacks cut through a lot of armor. Also, you’re probably out threatening most jack and beast bricks. I’d worry a bit about your list losing steam into lists with 2 huge bases, but maybe the answer is to bring a 3rd jack? Something like this?
Theme: Wolves of Winter 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Kommander Sorscha - WJ: +29 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 0 - Beast 09 - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Marauder - PC: 11
Fenris - PC: 8 - Fenris (Continued) Koldun Lord - PC: 0 Koldun Lord - PC: 0
Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Greylord Escort - PC: 3 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Greylord Escort - PC: 3 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10. (Or a min unit of outriders)
Given what we’re trying to do here, I don’t know about the outriders, but maybe you still need something to take out the sticky back line support. I’m also not sure about the 3rd jack (which could pay for the outriders), but it does add an extra dimension to the list.
The Armored Korp build I’d want with her would be something like double demo corp and a bunch of guns, but I don’t know that this is better than other casters and builds with Armored Korp, and you don’t really have a great threat extender for the Demo Corp.
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vlad
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 53
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Post by vlad on Feb 14, 2019 9:09:49 GMT
I had the same idea as you, and will be trying the following list in the coming weeks to see if it can work as a deterrent against infantry heavy lists while also being able to deal with warjack and battle engine lists.
Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Kommander Sorscha - WJ: +29 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 4 - Behemoth - PC: 25 (Battlegroup Points Used: 25) - Spriggan - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4)
Kovnik Andrei Malakov - PC: 0 - Victor - PC: 34 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 4 Yuri the Axe - PC: 0 Harlan Versh, Illuminated One - PC: 4
Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3
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Post by hocestbellum on Feb 14, 2019 10:45:33 GMT
This was the list I had in mind:
Khador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Legion of Steel
[Sorscha 1] Kommander Sorscha [+29] - Conquest [35] - Greylord Adjunct [0(4)] Iron Fang Kovnik [0(4)] Iron Fang Kovnik [0(4)] Ragman [4] Uhlan Kovnik Markov [7] Iron Fang Pikemen (max) [15] - Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard [4] Iron Fang Pikemen (max) [15] - Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard [4] Iron Fang Uhlans (max) [20]
Minimal testing on this version, though. I did have Skirova in there for a while, but I really wanted the extra Precision Strike.
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Post by auraco on Feb 14, 2019 12:26:21 GMT
This is good, lots of lists that we don't get to see often in the meta that look like they could be good. sand20go What exact build for Goreshade4 do you have in mind, sure he has a lot of arcane vortex, but it's very rare that all the models of a unit are in arcane vortex range, the adjunct pretty much fixes the cloudwall, all you need is some shooting to take care of the Lys healer (or spot removal like outriders) nothing in Goreshade4's kit actually helps his dude be immune to frost. Sure Goreshade has a couple of good tools, but saying he's a hard counter seems like a stretch to me. hocestbellumInteresting legion of steel list for sure, how are you liking the conquest with that list? Any special reason for a colossal? How much of a stretch would it be to actually include Ayana & holt in that kind of list? Debuff stacking can be interesting, Holt still brings two rat 8 hand canon shot. Something like that: conflictchamber.com/?c3201b_-0K477pdZnj8h8hnf89nf89nfnfngnn8M8IKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Wolves of Winter !!! This army contains a pre-release entry. [Sorscha 1] Kommander Sorscha [+29] - Destroyer [14] - Grolar [18] - Greylord Adjunct [0(4)] Koldun Lord [0(4)] Koldun Lord [4] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] - Greylord Escort [3] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] - Greylord Escort [3] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] Greylord Outriders (min) [10] Greylord Ternion [0(7)] Lady Aiyana & Master Holt [8] - Koldun Kapitan Valachev [4]
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Post by jonnyboy on Feb 14, 2019 12:35:29 GMT
I've had 5 games with S1 in this list so far. 1 wins vs retribution, 1 win vs slayer spam, 1 win vs primal terrors/kallus, lost vs tharn/iona, lost vs aby 1 beast/gargantuan spam.
The tharn loss was on me, played pretty poorly and let 5 ravagers charge me. Killed beast, gun carriage, and 12-15 winterguard. Felt bad, but learned my lesson.
I really agree that warnoun spam is rough. Utilizing winterguard meat shield is important, protecting jacks and BE is Paramount, but rockets and jacks punch real hard. Sorscha also always threats assassination, but you have to judge the best time to feat.
War Room Army
Khador - 03 - S1WGK (v2)
Theme: Winter Guard Kommand 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Kommander Sorscha - WJ: +29 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 4 - Beast 09 - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11)
Winter Guard Gun Carriage - PC: 17
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 4 Winter Guard Artillery Kapitan - PC: 3
Winter Guard Mortar Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 0 Winter Guard Field Gun Crew - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 4 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 5 Grunts: 8 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 Winter Guard Infantry - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6 - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 0 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 Winter Guard Infantry - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6 - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 0 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
THEME: Winter Guard Kommand ---
GENERATED : 02/14/2019 07:29:27 BUILD ID : 2071.19-02-05
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Post by auraco on Feb 14, 2019 12:47:23 GMT
That's not a list I would have expected to work against Gaspy3 Slayerspam, how did the game go? I'm guessing the casterkill potential of Sorscha is key here.
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Post by jonnyboy on Feb 14, 2019 13:13:27 GMT
That's not a list I would have expected to work against Gaspy3 Slayerspam, how did the game go? I'm guessing the casterkill potential of Sorscha is key here. That's exactly what happened. Beast 09 cleared a slayer and sorscha went in with 5 pow 13 weapon master attacks. Figured i wouldnt be able to win on attrition or scenario so i used the winterguard as best I could to gum things up for as long as possible.
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Post by Cirga on Feb 14, 2019 13:14:50 GMT
Khador - Sorcha 1 wolves
Theme: Wolves of Winter 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Kommander Sorscha - WJ: +29 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 0 - Beast 09 - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11)
Koldun Lord - PC: 0 Koldun Lord - PC: 4 Alexia, Mistress of the Witchfire - PC: 7 - Thrall Warrior Fenris - PC: 8 - Fenris (Continued)
Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Greylord Escort - PC: 3 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Greylord Escort - PC: 3 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Greylord Ternion - Leader & 2 Grunts: 0
THEME: Wolves of Winter
Haven't gotten any games in with it yet, still got a lot of reavers that need to be assembled, but that's what I'm planning to try first. I'm also assuming that the ALexia2 cid change sticks. Would struggle into extreme armor, but I think it will pair well with my S3 AC list which can handle high armor better.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Feb 14, 2019 13:44:09 GMT
[Sorscha 1] Kommander Sorscha [+29] - Destroyer [14] - Grolar [18] - Greylord Adjunct [0(4)] Koldun Lord [0(4)] Koldun Lord [4] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] - Greylord Escort [3] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] - Greylord Escort [3] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] Greylord Outriders (min) [10] Greylord Ternion [0(7)] Lady Aiyana & Master Holt [8] - Koldun Kapitan Valachev [4] auraco, I think I the addition of Aiyana and Holt, but you’re losing Fenris or a 3rd jack to include them so it’s a bit of a list building pickle now isn’t it. If you’re trying to build a list that pivots into a brick build (with huge bases), I think you want a Marauder in there somewhere, no? Also, I’m curious about your choice of the Grolar over Beast. Thoughts? vlad, the question I have about your list - which I don’t dislike per se - is that it feels like it won’t have game into Sorscha’s traditional anti-infantry hate to do what Auraco is after.
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Post by hocestbellum on Feb 14, 2019 14:11:27 GMT
hocestbellum Interesting legion of steel list for sure, how are you liking the conquest with that list? Any special reason for a colossal? (I assume the bit after that isn't aimed at me, as I can't take A&H) It's doing well, but I've only played a few games. There was some logic behind it, though: generally with Sorscha1 I would take something like double Destroyer to help with the shooting and assassination games, but I was finding that if I needed something to do properly heavy lifting the P17 one-attack jack just wasn't cutting it. I ran Juggers and Marauders, but she just doesn't have the focus to make them sing whilst also using her kit. So I was looking for something that could hit really hard, had some firepower, and didn't really need much focus from Sorscha. Colossals seemed to fit the bill pretty well. In theory, they hit hard enough to kill most Battle Engines with just their initial attacks (it's at least 50% to kill any of the ARM 19 ones with less than 30 hp, and with one focus/free charge it's 90% + to kill any of them). And if I needed to absolutely smash something, BC and +2 focus gives you a decent shot at wrecking anything in the game. On the firepower side they both have multiple shots of decent power. They also ignore a lot of the more annoying things in the game. I ended up going for Conquest over Viktor because of Creeping Barrage: the SR2018 central LoS-blocking terrain means that a lot of the time I can only truly mess up one flank at a time and a 9" wall of P10 can really help hold down the other flank. Plus, whilst I would never rely on it, sometimes Crit Dev will wreak absolute havoc. So far it's worked out well. That said, I am really damn bad at maneuvering that huge base! I don't know if that's just me being rubbish with them or a general thing; I've only played 5 games with a colossal ever. So it does feel clunky. But I feel like there's good options with the Adjunct, as giving a model with 5 ranged attacks magical weapons and Stealth-b-gone seems delicious.
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Post by auraco on Feb 14, 2019 14:29:03 GMT
From my games with Wolves of winter, the jacks tend to just lag behind and not do much, the grolar's heavy boiler and native pathfinder helps with that. Dual attack on a ROF D3+2 gun is also good when paired with a caster than can both freeze and knock things down. The gun also scales well with the damage buffs in the list. I might also just have an irrational soft spot for the grolar for some reason...
My experience with maraudeurs has mostly been that people keep their huge base far away from them and they rarely get to actually hit huge bases, Boundless charge is good, but 10'' threat range is ok but not great by any means. I still like what maraudeurs bring to the table for their point, I just don't think they automatically answer huge base, especially since most huge base, even without a spd buff will outthreat maradeurs or at least have the same threat range.
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