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Post by tjhairball on Feb 6, 2019 18:31:39 GMT
One of the things that has bothered me in pretty much any miniatures game is the occasional miniature that doesn't have a viable use. I think there's general agreement that this problem is not as bad in Mk III as it was in Mk II, though there's also general agreement that the effective ways of playing and building combinations of things to play in lists are narrower, because themes are so powerful and dominate Mk III play but don't include some of the major options.
The transition between the two editions definitely highlighted some of these, because there were changes. Here are the things that come to mind to me as things that have gone missing, and that do bother me a bit. Now that I'm starting to get back into playing and have bought a couple of new models (the first that I bought since Mk III launched, really), I want to air those thoughts a bit. Yes, this is a complaint thread in some sense. I don't like putting time and money into buying and painting models that sit in storage. I wasn't always running the most optimal lists, but everything I bought in Mk II was something I could at least do something interesting with and not face an added >10% force penalty for doing so.
- Hunting Wolves. I own Vanguards that I bought specifically to run with Zerkova in the Hunting Wolves theme. Many other Mk II theme force specialties (Arkadius goraxes, unlimited doom reavers) were brought over into either special rules in Mk III or into Mk II theme forces. This one didn't. There is no method for me to have Vanguards in Zerkova's battlegroup, and running multiple Vanguards in a Khador list requires multiple mercenary jack marshals. I'm still bitter about the fact that my Khvanguards are unusable.
- Mercenaries. In Mk II, there were viable ways to run a list with a Khador warcaster and a bunch of mercenaries thematically collected together. You could run pirates or Steelheads or Rhulic infantry with a Khador battlegroup (or Cygnar, etc). This whole route of play - and the ability to "grow into" a mercenary collection as a second faction - has been shut down as totally non-viable. There's no "here's our off-the-books operation using mercenaries" theme for Khador; it's not as if a "take any and all mercenaries working for Khador and not any of the regular troops" theme force would be in any way better than Irregulars, or any less thematically appropriate.
- The Vlad3 cavalry army was pretty well shut down. Cavalry have been spread out across three different themes. I'm glad I didn't end up investing in it. Or Vlad3. I'd been thinking about it a lot before Mk III rolled around.
- Assault Kommandos are in a bad place. Near the end of Mk II, I was figuring out how to get interesting usage out of them; now, while they're technically allowed in the Winter Guard theme, they're in a much worse place.
- Character warjacks. I own Black Ivan and Torch, and I put a lot of time into giving them distinctive and interesting paint jobs. I had fun putting them on the table in Mk II. Note these two were allowed in a theme (Heavy Metal) that didn't involve Harkevich or Strakhov. I don't own Harkevich or Strakhov and I'm not interested in investing in them. PP has decided to make Ruin available generically in Wolves of Winter, Ruin being a character warjack I wasn't interested in investing in.
- Battle Mechanic officer. He was bad in Mk II, but he did have a particular interesting niche in that he opened up MoW repair. He's still bad, and with MoW repair baked in, he has no reason to come to the table that I can see. This model is a stand-out model from the perspective of being remarkably useless in spite of significant changes from Mk II and being potentially affected by multiple CID cycles.
Okay, there's that off my chest. Honestly, I do feel like there are a lot of things better in Mk III, and I don't even really think that the method of shoe-horning play primarily into theme lists is an intrinsically bad one - it's just that there are some major thematic options that were available in Mk II that don't fit in any of those themes, and that PP could easily have included those.
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Post by sand20go on Feb 6, 2019 22:10:14 GMT
+1 - but I am not enough of a WM/H geek to know how much others have been negatively impacted.
AK: I figure that AKs will get some love come WGI CID - though I am not sure what will be added to that group in respect to new models to make it financially worth PP's while. Would probably take an officer. Maybe Joe on a horse? Maybe another BE in a dual kit. Otherwise I doubt WGK is a top candidate for reworking and thus AKs will sit with dust.
Mercs/Hunting Wolves: Totally agree. Sad part is that those jacks are not that good in merc themes so they are a dead purchase. I know if _I_ were king for the day that would be a top CID priority - because I want to SELL mercenaries to ALL the factions. To avoid unbalanced skewness the benefits should be pretty limited - I mean you can take a Sorscha's 11 right now as is - just with no theme benefits. Perhaps just 2 inches on deployment, a free 4 solo for every 30 points of mercs and then something fun like "you get three coins to spend a game. Coins can be spent to boost or buy"). Probably not playable but we would have a place for our LARGE merc. collection but which are not really set up to run mercs.
Character Jacks. Since I own everything I feel a little less pain than you but I have played like 3 games ever with Black Ivan and 1 with Torch. I regret not making Torch into a another maurader. What does that tell you.
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Post by hocestbellum on Feb 6, 2019 22:17:32 GMT
Mk3 is actually really good for getting a wider range of models on the table. Part of this is CID perpetually buffing the also-rans. The other part is themes limiting your choices to the point you basically have to field certain things.
You'd never see the Demo Corps in Mk2, because they were so much worse than the Great Bears. But now both see play because they aren't competing against each other.
But yes, Assault Kommandos suck, and are in the wrong theme, and don't count for points in the theme.
Character jacks are pretty much a casualty of themes. Gone are the days of putting Superiority on Black Ivan to have a DEF14 Khador Heavy with Dodge. They get hit coming and going; no-one plays them if they're bad, or if their caster is bad, or if their theme is bad.
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Post by tjhairball on Feb 6, 2019 23:48:52 GMT
+1 - but I am not enough of a WM/H geek to know how much others have been negatively impacted. AK: I figure that AKs will get some love come WGI CID - though I am not sure what will be added to that group in respect to new models to make it financially worth PP's while. Would probably take an officer. Maybe Joe on a horse? Maybe another BE in a dual kit. Otherwise I doubt WGK is a top candidate for reworking and thus AKs will sit with dust. Mercs/Hunting Wolves: Totally agree. Sad part is that those jacks are not that good in merc themes so they are a dead purchase. I know if _I_ were king for the day that would be a top CID priority - because I want to SELL mercenaries to ALL the factions. To avoid unbalanced skewness the benefits should be pretty limited - I mean you can take a Sorscha's 11 right now as is - just with no theme benefits. Perhaps just 2 inches on deployment, a free 4 solo for every 30 points of mercs and then something fun like "you get three coins to spend a game. Coins can be spent to boost or buy"). Probably not playable but we would have a place for our LARGE merc. collection but which are not really set up to run mercs. Character Jacks. Since I own everything I feel a little less pain than you but I have played like 3 games ever with Black Ivan and 1 with Torch. I regret not making Torch into a another maurader. What does that tell you. I used to put Black Ivan on the table a lot. Torch not as much, except in my "fire and ice" list. (That list included Assault Kommandos, Greylords, and 2x Tactical Arcanist Corps. I think I squeezed Highshields into one version of it.)
Think you're right on the "sell" point. Personally, I was starting to creep into enough mercenaries to have started planning what I would have to buy in order to start running a decent mercenary list without getting much I couldn't use with my Khador if I decided I didn't like the warcasters. Trying to jump into mercenaries now would be chancy and a big buy-in all at once. In Mk II, you could branch into mercs slowly until you had enough to run a list. If PP hadn't shocked me into putting my purchases on hold when Mk III dropped and I'd kept on with my slow creep into mercenary purchases, I might have spent another thousand to two thousand dollars on the hobby in the last couple of years.
On a "mercs that work for us" theme force, balance-wise, when I look at the current Irregulars theme and ask myself "Would this theme be stronger as a Khador theme that just allowed mercs that work for Khador?" the quick answer is "No."
"Mercenaries that work for Khador" would include Ogrun Bokur and Steelhead non-character solos.
"Mercenaries allowed in Irregulars but that don't work for Khador" includes, at a glance to Warmachine University, Anastasia di Bray, Dahlia & Skarath, Gastone Crosse, Lanyssa Ryssyl, Major Gibbs, Rhupert Carvolo, Savio Montero Acosta, Taryn di la Rovissi, Victor Pendrake, Wrongeye & Snapjaw, Devil Dogs, Horgenhold stuff, Idrians, Lynus & Edrea, Ogrun Assault Corps, Precursor Knights, Devil's Shadow Mutineers, and Thorn Gun Mages.
Irregulars has broader selection with many more combinations. Throw in the fact that a number of Khador spells and feats are friendly faction and not usable on mercs (except Kayazy or ones with Valachev attached), and it's hard to see how a Khador warcaster would synergize better with mercs than the mercenary warcasters do.
Obviously Khador isn't the only faction that could do with a theme like that.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578 
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Post by Juris on Feb 7, 2019 0:10:29 GMT
+1 - but I am not enough of a WM/H geek to know how much others have been negatively impacted. AK: I figure that AKs will get some love come WGI CID - though I am not sure what will be added to that group in respect to new models to make it financially worth PP's while. Would probably take an officer. Maybe Joe on a horse? Maybe another BE in a dual kit. Otherwise I doubt WGK is a top candidate for reworking and thus AKs will sit with dust. Mercs/Hunting Wolves: Totally agree. Sad part is that those jacks are not that good in merc themes so they are a dead purchase. I know if _I_ were king for the day that would be a top CID priority - because I want to SELL mercenaries to ALL the factions. To avoid unbalanced skewness the benefits should be pretty limited - I mean you can take a Sorscha's 11 right now as is - just with no theme benefits. Perhaps just 2 inches on deployment, a free 4 solo for every 30 points of mercs and then something fun like "you get three coins to spend a game. Coins can be spent to boost or buy"). Probably not playable but we would have a place for our LARGE merc. collection but which are not really set up to run mercs. Character Jacks. Since I own everything I feel a little less pain than you but I have played like 3 games ever with Black Ivan and 1 with Torch. I regret not making Torch into a another maurader. What does that tell you. The Vanguards is a really good light warjack that is actually priced appropriately (it could be 9 points. 8 would be way too cheap). The problem is that most armies don't have a good use for a 10 point light warjack. If you compare the Vanguard to the Rager, the Vanguard is actually a much better warjack. You may respond that the Rager never sees play and is a bad comparison, but this is just to give you an idea of its value. Incidentally, Vanguards are an excellent include in Crucible Guard armies. Perhaps this is the time for you to start collecting CG? =P |
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Post by tjhairball on Feb 7, 2019 3:57:53 GMT
+1 - but I am not enough of a WM/H geek to know how much others have been negatively impacted. AK: I figure that AKs will get some love come WGI CID - though I am not sure what will be added to that group in respect to new models to make it financially worth PP's while. Would probably take an officer. Maybe Joe on a horse? Maybe another BE in a dual kit. Otherwise I doubt WGK is a top candidate for reworking and thus AKs will sit with dust. Mercs/Hunting Wolves: Totally agree. Sad part is that those jacks are not that good in merc themes so they are a dead purchase. I know if _I_ were king for the day that would be a top CID priority - because I want to SELL mercenaries to ALL the factions. To avoid unbalanced skewness the benefits should be pretty limited - I mean you can take a Sorscha's 11 right now as is - just with no theme benefits. Perhaps just 2 inches on deployment, a free 4 solo for every 30 points of mercs and then something fun like "you get three coins to spend a game. Coins can be spent to boost or buy"). Probably not playable but we would have a place for our LARGE merc. collection but which are not really set up to run mercs. Character Jacks. Since I own everything I feel a little less pain than you but I have played like 3 games ever with Black Ivan and 1 with Torch. I regret not making Torch into a another maurader. What does that tell you. The Vanguards is a really good light warjack that is actually priced appropriately (it could be 9 points. 8 would be way too cheap). The problem is that most armies don't have a good use for a 10 point light warjack. If you compare the Vanguard to the Rager, the Vanguard is actually a much better warjack. You may respond that the Rager never sees play and is a bad comparison, but this is just to give you an idea of its value. Incidentally, Vanguards are an excellent include in Crucible Guard armies. Perhaps this is the time for you to start collecting CG? =P Crucible Guard looks nice. And they seem interesting. And the way things are, I'm not going to start collecting CG. I know you're joking, but if Mk III hadn't been a sudden chiller on my buying habits, I might have already started to invest in CG.
If playing a viable Mk III list wasn't all-or-nothing theme, I could have kept slowly and cautiously adding mercs and transitioned into playing mercenaries as a secondary faction. I'm happy with how Ashlynn d'Elyse turned out on my painting table, but I rarely have an excuse to show her off, so I sort of regret buying her. If I picked up a little bit more mercenary stuff, something I would have been willing to do if I could viably field mercs in Khador in Mk III, I would have been ready to start putting her on the table.
If that went okay, it would have been all I needed to get over my hesitation and purchase Taryn, the Toro, the Thorn gun mages, Rhupert ... all models I felt I liked the looks and rules of but couldn't justify purchasing without an army to add them to. At that point, the chain goes from slowly but incrementally adding first "Merc-dor," then generic merc play, then the Resistance. After the Crucible CID, if I liked the look of things, I could add a Crucible unit or two to the Resistance army, proxying the odd model or two occasionally. If I liked the way that was going, I could pick up a Crucible warcaster and start running a Crucible list.
If I didn't like the direction things were going at any point, I would have stopped going that way and had maybe 1-2 models / units gathering dust from an experiment gone bad, and that's an acceptable downside. However, I'm not willing to go all in at once and drop > $200, fill up a rack / box worth of miniature storage space, and then spend many hours of painting time on a collection of models just to shelve them and have them collect dust. That's what starting up a minimum playable Crucible Guard army and then deciding I didn't like how they panned out on the table (appearance wise or play experience wise) would look like. |
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