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Post by davycannonhound on Feb 4, 2019 2:42:54 GMT
So, my two favorite legion warlocks are pRhyas and Lyllyth2. However, together they probably aren't the best pairing. I'm leaning towards pRhyas as she is my most-played warlock and I have the most wins with her out of any warlock I've played, but I would like a good warlock to pair both of them with.
pRhyas would either be out of theme or in Primal Terrors, and Lyllyth2 would either be in Primal Terrors or CotD.
Anyways, who would pRhyas pair well with, and who would Lyllyth2 pair well with? Below are some potential lists (still a WIP).
War Room Army
Legion of Everblight - Rhyas Tournament
Theme: No Theme Selected 75 / 75 Army
Rhyas, Sigil of Everblight - WB: +30 - Succubus - PC: 4 - Scythean - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 16) - Seraph - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Stinger - PC: 4 - Nephilim Protector - PC: 10
The Forsaken - PC: 4 Strider Deathstalker - PC: 4 Incubus - 5 Incubi: 6 Blighted Nyss Warlord - PC: 5
Strider Blightblades - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Blighted Nyss Swordsmen - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15 - Blighted Nyss Swordsmen Abbot & Champion - Abbot & Champion: 6 Ice Witches - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7
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GENERATED : 02/04/2019 11:29:07 BUILD ID : 2069.18-10-06
War Room Army
Legion of Everblight - Lyllyth2 Tournament #1
Theme: Children of the Dragon 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Lylyth, Shadow of Everblight - WB: +28 - Succubus - PC: 4 - Azrael - PC: 21 (Battlegroup Points Used: 21) - Zuriel - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Nephilim Bolt Thrower - PC: 11
Craelix, Fang of Everblight - PC: 0 Annyssa Ryvaal - PC: 8 Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1 Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1 Spell Martyr - PC: 1
Blighted Nyss Archers - Leader & 9 Grunts: 13 - Blighted Nyss Archer Officer & Ammo Porter - Officer & Ammo Porter: 0 Blighted Nyss Raptors - Leader & 4 Grunts: 18 Ice Witches - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7
THEME: Children of the Dragon ---
GENERATED : 02/04/2019 11:30:07 BUILD ID : 2069.18-10-06
War Room Army
Legion of Everblight - Lyllyth2 Tournament #2
Theme: Primal Terrors 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Lylyth, Shadow of Everblight - WB: +28 - Ammok the Truthbearer - PC: 4 - Seraph - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Ravagore - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Naga Nightlurker - PC: 8 - Nephilim Bolt Thrower - PC: 11
Warmonger War Chief - PC: 0 Warmonger War Chief - PC: 0 The Forsaken - PC: 4 The Forsaken - PC: 4 Spell Martyr - PC: 1 Spell Martyr - PC: 1
Blighted Ogrun Warspears - Leader & 4 Grunts: 15 - Warspear Chieftain - PC: 5 Blighted Ogrun Warspears - Leader & 4 Grunts: 15 - Warspear Chieftain - PC: 5
THEME: Primal Terrors ---
GENERATED : 02/04/2019 11:30:20 BUILD ID : 2069.18-10-06
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Post by apoc2148 on Feb 4, 2019 13:08:45 GMT
Do you have any set lists for Lyly2 or pRhyas that you are planning on using as the core of your pairing? That might help narrow down what match ups you will need the second list to cover.
I see Lyly2 as more of an 1 hp infantry mulching list (cryx, ret, pirates), so your second list will need to cover your box/arm spam lists (bastions, tharn, AC).
pRhyas can have such a varied list compositions it is almost hard to pick a pair for her without seeing a list. She has mild support for beasts via occultation, and Rapport. But she can also help out infantry with dash. A fun combo with her is dash + swordsmen+ UA. Cleave+overtake+parry is a good way to chew completely through a unit and then some. She wants hard hitting infantry that she can make faster and a few beat-stick beasts backing them up. I would figure she would be the more generalist list in a pairing, so the 2nd could be a hard skew.
What starting lists did you have in mind for pRhyas and Lyly2?
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Post by voidbender on Feb 4, 2019 15:59:16 GMT
Without seeing the lists, Rhyas1 and Lylyth2 seem to do things quite differently. The primary similarity I'm aware of Is that they are squishy casters with low Fury who rely on fairly high defense and stealth to survive.
I don't see how they cover the same matchups, but if you're concerned about the similar type of assassination weakness I could recommend a caster like thagrosh(either) who is a bit more resilient and has more Fury to camp.
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Post by davycannonhound on Feb 4, 2019 17:28:43 GMT
Do you have any set lists for Lyly2 or pRhyas that you are planning on using as the core of your pairing? That might help narrow down what match ups you will need the second list to cover. I see Lyly2 as more of an 1 hp infantry mulching list (cryx, ret, pirates), so your second list will need to cover your box/arm spam lists (bastions, tharn, AC). pRhyas can have such a varied list compositions it is almost hard to pick a pair for her without seeing a list. She has mild support for beasts via occultation, and Rapport. But she can also help out infantry with dash. A fun combo with her is dash + swordsmen+ UA. Cleave+overtake+parry is a good way to chew completely through a unit and then some. She wants hard hitting infantry that she can make faster and a few beat-stick beasts backing them up. I would figure she would be the more generalist list in a pairing, so the 2nd could be a hard skew. What starting lists did you have in mind for pRhyas and Lyly2? About to edit the main post with some lists.
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Post by apoc2148 on Feb 6, 2019 13:05:33 GMT
War Room Army Legion of Everblight - Rhyas Tournament Theme: No Theme Selected 75 / 75 Army Rhyas, Sigil of Everblight - WB: +30 - Succubus - PC: 4 - Scythean - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 16) - Seraph - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Stinger - PC: 4 - Nephilim Protector - PC: 10 The Forsaken - PC: 4 Strider Deathstalker - PC: 4 Incubus - 5 Incubi: 6 Blighted Nyss Warlord - PC: 5 Strider Blightblades - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Blighted Nyss Swordsmen - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15 - Blighted Nyss Swordsmen Abbot & Champion - Abbot & Champion: 6 Ice Witches - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7 This list looks like it should be able to chew threw infantry fairly well, ambushing blightblades can give you an edge in scenario and stealth swordsmen are awesome. It might have a little trouble cracking high arm lists/box spam lists with the single unit and scythean as the heavy hitters. Trolls, bastions, AC, PT are going to give you fits but you've always got the assassination potential with Rhyas's feat so it can come down to your opponent making a bad decision.
For a pairing I would look towards more of an arm-cracker list. So pThag CoTD, Anamag PT, eAby oracles. Something that can reliably chew through at least two units of heavy infantry a turn and can attrition well.
Solid ranged heavy list. Lots of high quality shooting that will only slightly suffer from fast jammers and stealth. Feat will help deal with the jammers but will suffer from any hard scenario push.
Probably want to back it up with an attrition list, so PT. God I really hate how much legion has to rely on PT anymore.
This list looks fun. Sadly it will lack much punch to break armor or box spam lists. One interesting thing is that on feat turn each unit of warspears should be able to take out a 10 man unit.
Again this needs to be paired with an arm/box killer list. And you guessed it, PT is right at the top of the list. ------------------------------------------------------------
So overall it looks like any of the lists above will need to be paired with a list that can survive the attrition slog. Mk3 legion still tries to follow the glass cannon ideal but with a little less cannon anymore. PT seems to solve a lot of these issues by adding access to resilient (chosen) and hard hitting (warmongers, warspears) units with buffing casters (kallus1, pThag, Anamag), and out of activation movement (vengeance on warmonger+warspears) to ensure that your units will survive to engagement and punishes your opponent's shooting attempts. It also has the advantage of taking hellmouths for free, so that helps prevent you from getting boxed out of scenario.
As much as I hate the pair stagnation that PT has created in legion, it is still a viable theme with several different list permutations that have been proven over multiple tourney events.
That's my two cents.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Feb 6, 2019 17:13:34 GMT
Warspears under lylyth2 crack armour extremely well. Maybe it was more relevant when colossals ran around everywhere, but in these days of medium infantry I'd say they are still very relevant (if you can keep em alive).
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Post by apoc2148 on Feb 6, 2019 18:23:48 GMT
Warspears under lylyth2 crack armour extremely well. Maybe it was more relevant when colossals ran around everywhere, but in these days of medium infantry I'd say they are still very relevant (if you can keep em alive). Against the some medium base infantry I think you have a point. Bastion, other mongers, tharn, are mostly arm 16 and if they are the prey target the spears will be up to pow 15 which will kill 1 per attack on average dice. Pin cushion could help swing dice and feat allowing you another ranged attack really helps up their volume of attacks. One unit of spears+ua pumping out 12 pow 15 ranged attacks is nothing to sneeze at.
However, without some other kind of buff or defbuff, once you start to hit arm 20 their damage output drops significantly. Sadly Lyly2 doesn't have an external buff apart from pin cushion, but that relies more on dice spikes than pure numbers. So you would either need the blightbringer or BFS to reliably make them crack arm 20 or higher. Even at arm 18 they start to drop off on damage, and arm 18 isn't hard to achieve for most lists that rely on med base infantry. It would take 2 ranged attacks from a warpsear to kill a 5 wound arm 18 model with average dice.
Don't get me wrong, I love the warspears and am saddened that they are out of the spotlight due to monger spam. But they do need a little more help than Lyly2 can provide by herself to really be considered dedicated arm crackers.
Now if you put them up against 1 hp infantry the conversation completely changes. They can easily crack up to arm 21, 1 hp infantry with just prey alone. Toss in her feat to give them the 2nd attack and they should wipe out an entire 10-12 man unit in one activation.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Feb 6, 2019 19:08:08 GMT
On the charge and under feat they get three attacks though, all of which benefit from pincushion and the BB aura. Problem is getting that charge in the first place of course, and mirage helps there.
I don't know if this can be set up and against what (ie if this has a place in any current meta) but if this is a sound gameplan they will work wonders. Just treat them like any other squishy meleeunit.
I can see her run two units pretty well if you run the one with the intention of getting into melee while the other's reserved for ranged and lategame play.
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Post by davycannonhound on Feb 6, 2019 19:33:15 GMT
Warspears under lylyth2 crack armour extremely well. Maybe it was more relevant when colossals ran around everywhere, but in these days of medium infantry I'd say they are still very relevant (if you can keep em alive). Against the some medium base infantry I think you have a point. Bastion, other mongers, tharn, are mostly arm 16 and if they are the prey target the spears will be up to pow 15 which will kill 1 per attack on average dice. Pin cushion could help swing dice and feat allowing you another ranged attack really helps up their volume of attacks. One unit of spears+ua pumping out 12 pow 15 ranged attacks is nothing to sneeze at.
However, without some other kind of buff or defbuff, once you start to hit arm 20 their damage output drops significantly. Sadly Lyly2 doesn't have an external buff apart from pin cushion, but that relies more on dice spikes than pure numbers. So you would either need the blightbringer or BFS to reliably make them crack arm 20 or higher. Even at arm 18 they start to drop off on damage, and arm 18 isn't hard to achieve for most lists that rely on med base infantry. It would take 2 ranged attacks from a warpsear to kill a 5 wound arm 18 model with average dice.
Don't get me wrong, I love the warspears and am saddened that they are out of the spotlight due to monger spam. But they do need a little more help than Lyly2 can provide by herself to really be considered dedicated arm crackers.
Now if you put them up against 1 hp infantry the conversation completely changes. They can easily crack up to arm 21, 1 hp infantry with just prey alone. Toss in her feat to give them the 2nd attack and they should wipe out an entire 10-12 man unit in one activation.
Just a small note: Warspears can throw their spears 3 times per model with Lyllyth2 (assault + gunfighter + extra shot). So, if need be a unit can gang up on a warbeast/jack and hit it 15 times with a RAT 8 (thanks to the warmonger chief) POW 15 shot (if its the prey).
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Post by davycannonhound on Feb 6, 2019 20:39:46 GMT
So overall it looks like any of the lists above will need to be paired with a list that can survive the attrition slog. Mk3 legion still tries to follow the glass cannon ideal but with a little less cannon anymore. PT seems to solve a lot of these issues by adding access to resilient (chosen) and hard hitting (warmongers, warspears) units with buffing casters (kallus1, pThag, Anamag), and out of activation movement (vengeance on warmonger+warspears) to ensure that your units will survive to engagement and punishes your opponent's shooting attempts. It also has the advantage of taking hellmouths for free, so that helps prevent you from getting boxed out of scenario.
As much as I hate the pair stagnation that PT has created in legion, it is still a viable theme with several different list permutations that have been proven over multiple tourney events.
That's my two cents.
Would Fyanna in Oracles or CotD be a good substitute for PT? Between Iron Flesh, Admonition, and her feat her army can be pretty survivable, and Fury makes it hit hard to boot.
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Post by apoc2148 on Feb 6, 2019 20:55:37 GMT
On the charge and under feat they get three attacks though, all of which benefit from pincushion and the BB aura. Problem is getting that charge in the first place of course, and mirage helps there. I don't know if this can be set up and against what (ie if this has a place in any current meta) but if this is a sound gameplan they will work wonders. Just treat them like any other squishy meleeunit. I can see her run two units pretty well if you run the one with the intention of getting into melee while the other's reserved for ranged and lategame play. While they get gunfighter, they don't get dual attack. So they could make their assault shot then the charge attack but I don't think they would then get to make another ranged attack?
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Post by apoc2148 on Feb 6, 2019 21:00:04 GMT
So overall it looks like any of the lists above will need to be paired with a list that can survive the attrition slog. Mk3 legion still tries to follow the glass cannon ideal but with a little less cannon anymore. PT seems to solve a lot of these issues by adding access to resilient (chosen) and hard hitting (warmongers, warspears) units with buffing casters (kallus1, pThag, Anamag), and out of activation movement (vengeance on warmonger+warspears) to ensure that your units will survive to engagement and punishes your opponent's shooting attempts. It also has the advantage of taking hellmouths for free, so that helps prevent you from getting boxed out of scenario.
As much as I hate the pair stagnation that PT has created in legion, it is still a viable theme with several different list permutations that have been proven over multiple tourney events.
That's my two cents.
Would Fyanna in Oracles or CotD be a good substitute for PT? Between Iron Flesh, Admonition, and her feat her army can be pretty survivable, and Fury makes it hit hard to boot. Definitely worth a shot. She has everything the ogrun need for support. But it asks the question, does she do it better than Anamag?
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Post by davycannonhound on Feb 6, 2019 21:29:05 GMT
Would Fyanna in Oracles or CotD be a good substitute for PT? Between Iron Flesh, Admonition, and her feat her army can be pretty survivable, and Fury makes it hit hard to boot. Definitely worth a shot. She has everything the ogrun need for support. But it asks the question, does she do it better than Anamag? I'd say they're too different for one to be "better" than the other. That said, I'd rather do a Flying/Serpentine spam than Ogrun with Fyanna anyways.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Feb 6, 2019 21:47:50 GMT
On the charge and under feat they get three attacks though, all of which benefit from pincushion and the BB aura. Problem is getting that charge in the first place of course, and mirage helps there. I don't know if this can be set up and against what (ie if this has a place in any current meta) but if this is a sound gameplan they will work wonders. Just treat them like any other squishy meleeunit. I can see her run two units pretty well if you run the one with the intention of getting into melee while the other's reserved for ranged and lategame play. While they get gunfighter, they don't get dual attack. So they could make their assault shot then the charge attack but I don't think they would then get to make another ranged attack? they don't need dual attack, that's the beauty of it. Gunfighter let's you make initial attacks (in this case the charge attack) as a ranged attack, so by the time you get to make the extra attack you've only made ranged attacks and you do get the third one. There's some restrictions though. The charge attack must be made against a target in melee range, the charge target of possible. If the assault attack kills the charge target it may be redirected, but only against a target in the models melee range, not in throw range. Gunfighter allows you to make the initial attack as if it were a ranged attack, but it can still only target models that it can target when meleeing. Gunfighter doesn't change that (in fact ot expressly tells us this is a limitation). Note this means the charge attack is lost of nothing is in melee. I believe the assault attack doesn't have that restriction? Say two ogruns charge the same target, the first one kills it, you can redirect the assault attack to something in throw if you are not in melee anymore, or if there something in meleerange it must be redirected into that because you can't shoot out of combat? After that you get the third feat attack, this must be targeted against a model in melee, or if nothing is in melee (anymore) it can be targeted against a model in throwrange. It's a fullfledged ranged attack in that regard. Note that a failed charge will only give you the assault attack, not the featattack. Pfff, I think that covers it. One of the more complicated interactions in the game. One final note. Some people think it doesn't work this way because they have rof1, but rof just regards the number of initial attacks, which play a role during combat. Assaultattacks are part of charge, not meleeing, and the featattack is just that, a feat effect... That breaks the normal order of things :-)
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Post by davycannonhound on Feb 6, 2019 21:49:10 GMT
On the charge and under feat they get three attacks though, all of which benefit from pincushion and the BB aura. Problem is getting that charge in the first place of course, and mirage helps there. I don't know if this can be set up and against what (ie if this has a place in any current meta) but if this is a sound gameplan they will work wonders. Just treat them like any other squishy meleeunit. I can see her run two units pretty well if you run the one with the intention of getting into melee while the other's reserved for ranged and lategame play. While they get gunfighter, they don't get dual attack. So they could make their assault shot then the charge attack but I don't think they would then get to make another ranged attack? The way it ends up working out is this: They charge and get their assault shot. Assuming they make it into melee, Gunfighter then allows them to make another ranged attack in melee as opposed to a melee attack. Lyllyth2's feat THEN gives them a second shot to also use with Gunfighter. Voila, three shots.
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