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Post by sand20go on Jan 30, 2019 5:08:10 GMT
Great list mojo going on but I want to ask a question at one level up in abstraction....
Is this our first real "question" of Mk3. And by that I mean that a key question we are going to be DEMANDING is how to get rid of what could be an 18 inch cloud wall combined with anti shooting tech. YES. your opponent is likely/may have an eyeless sight model (or 2) sitting around. But I don't think that cuts it (at ALL). Yes. The clouds "go away" if the doomies die. But if your opponent is frustrated with the cloud wall and can't really get at the doomies "in depth" I fear the following turn when we unleash the fury of the motherland upon them. There are "options" but right now it feels REALLY strong.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jan 30, 2019 9:01:31 GMT
I remain skeptical. I'm not at michael levels of dislike for the theme, but let's wait a bit before declaring it the second coming of Morrow.
It's not really a question, is it? 'How do you get through this cloud wall' usually needs some specialist tech, whereas this one is defeated by all the same things, plus any completely mundane attack. Trying to flummox your opponent by making him kill 3-6 very fragile models lined up at the front of your army is not what I would call a solid plan.
Which isn't to say that Wolves is bad; I think it's in a good place. But declaring it super-amazing before it even hits the table is a sure-fire way to get disappointed.
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vlad
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 53
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Post by vlad on Jan 30, 2019 11:29:34 GMT
Karchev and 14 Mad Dogs was our first question list in Mk3.
That said, Wolves of Winter might be the theme force with the most potential for a “question” list out of all the other theme options.
Sorscha1 and OldWitch2 with six unit of Reavers both seem like good option to pose a question even to lists with decent shooting.
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Post by michael on Jan 30, 2019 13:55:53 GMT
I remain skeptical. I'm not at michael levels of dislike for the theme, but let's wait a bit before declaring it the second coming of Morrow. It's not really a question, is it? 'How do you get through this cloud wall' usually needs some specialist tech, whereas this one is defeated by all the same things, plus any completely mundane attack. Trying to flummox your opponent by making him kill 3-6 very fragile models lined up at the front of your army is not what I would call a solid plan. Which isn't to say that Wolves is bad; I think it's in a good place. But declaring it super-amazing before it even hits the table is a sure-fire way to get disappointed. To be fair, I only hate the Brittle Frost / Bonds of Woe swap. But I hate that a lot. It eliminates a staggering amount of flexibility with this theme. (Just as one example: I had a pretty solid Wolves-as-jack-list thing going when a swarm of Ternion could possibly apply Brittle Frost on multiple targets, while backed with Koldun + Forge Seers doing Empower duty. It maybe wasn’t the most efficient list ever, but it worked, and it was a fun sideways way to approach the theme beyond “more Doom Reavers.”) |
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Post by hocestbellum on Jan 30, 2019 14:46:20 GMT
I remain skeptical. I'm not at michael levels of dislike for the theme, but let's wait a bit before declaring it the second coming of Morrow. It's not really a question, is it? 'How do you get through this cloud wall' usually needs some specialist tech, whereas this one is defeated by all the same things, plus any completely mundane attack. Trying to flummox your opponent by making him kill 3-6 very fragile models lined up at the front of your army is not what I would call a solid plan. Which isn't to say that Wolves is bad; I think it's in a good place. But declaring it super-amazing before it even hits the table is a sure-fire way to get disappointed. To be fair, I only hate the Brittle Frost / Bonds of Woe swap. But I hate that a lot. It eliminates a staggering amount of flexibility with this theme. (Just as one example: I had a pretty solid Wolves-as-jack-list thing going when a swarm of Ternion could possibly apply Brittle Frost on multiple targets, while backed with Koldun + Forge Seers doing Empower duty. It maybe wasn’t the most efficient list ever, but it worked, and it was a fun sideways way to approach the theme beyond “more Doom Reavers.”) That's fair. I thought the Koldun would get Canker Brittle Frost, but I thought the Escort would get Bonds of Woe and the Ternion would keep Frostbite. The Ternion feel a bit awkward now with their 2 RNG10 magic shots. I'm still planning to run Wolves as a jack list. I'm even planning to run Hark like the lunatic I am. He lacks focus, accuracy boosts, and damage boosts, and Wolves is in a good place to supply all those things. |
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Post by michael on Jan 30, 2019 17:02:11 GMT
That's fair. I thought the Koldun would get Canker Brittle Frost, but I thought the Escort would get Bonds of Woe and the Ternion would keep Frostbite. The Ternion feel a bit awkward now with their 2 RNG10 magic shots. I'm still planning to run Wolves as a jack list. I'm even planning to run Hark like the lunatic I am. He lacks focus, accuracy boosts, and damage boosts, and Wolves is in a good place to supply all those things. The Ternion is in a much worse place now than pre-CID, in my opinion. Three crappy POW 12’s for 7 points, and some slightly more flexible clouds, is a lot less desirable to me than Frostbite sprays. All the other Puppet Master models tend to have Puppet Master and a lot of chaff spells rounding out their list, while the Koldun now has three practically vital spells PLUS who knows what else from Lore Master competing against one another, and he’s FA 2. That’s not “an interesting choice”, it’s an exercise in frustration. “Stack everything good in one place so you can never use what you want when you want.” Seriously. Gah. |
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Post by sand20go on Jan 30, 2019 20:24:30 GMT
That's fair. I thought the Koldun would get Canker Brittle Frost, but I thought the Escort would get Bonds of Woe and the Ternion would keep Frostbite. The Ternion feel a bit awkward now with their 2 RNG10 magic shots. I'm still planning to run Wolves as a jack list. I'm even planning to run Hark like the lunatic I am. He lacks focus, accuracy boosts, and damage boosts, and Wolves is in a good place to supply all those things. The Ternion is in a much worse place now than pre-CID, in my opinion. Three crappy POW 12’s for 7 points, and some slightly more flexible clouds, is a lot less desirable to me than Frostbite sprays. All the other Puppet Master models tend to have Puppet Master and a lot of chaff spells rounding out their list, while the Koldun now has three practically vital spells PLUS who knows what else from Lore Master competing against one another, and he’s FA 2. That’s not “an interesting choice”, it’s an exercise in frustration. “Stack everything good in one place so you can never use what you want when you want.” Seriously. Gah. I guess we will agree to disagree. RFP, even if limited to living models, is still really welcome, especially on models that are free. Ditto combining ice cage AND the escort's fell curse that gives you a non trivial chance to take out spirits and cortexs. While I would LIKE more brittlefrosts and not having it compete with PM I also think that what is likely to play itself on the table is that the KL will cast a PM or 2 early to help with a range or magic attack and then look to start debuffing armor late game. Most (all?) Wolves lists will have 2. When you start thinking about the ways we can now start to stack debuffs (Brittle, Kiss, Rags, Curse of Shadows) I GET why there could have been a significant testing concern (likely internal) with giving Brittle out like candy. Hell - I think that OW2 is going to be a serious pain in the butt for a LOT of factions that don't have a ton of sprays and get a lot of salt in current form. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. I don't know if it will be "meta warping" but I do think that with the opportunity to "layer in" anti-shooting (Z1, OW2, Irusk2, Vlad2) with the cloud wall and then arm debuff there and 10 point doomies there is going to be some concerns as to how tough it is to build in answers on the approach and weather out the alpha. Having Doomies be essentially always POW14 because you are getting out 9 brittles a turn would be would have been challenging |
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Post by jonnyboy on Jan 30, 2019 21:54:58 GMT
People keep mentioning using doomies for cloud wall targets. The UA is a way better candidate IMHO. Why?
-Same defense
-Can Sac pawn to doomies that have tough
Now your opponent has to chew through much much more before your cloud wall is broken.
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Post by sand20go on Jan 30, 2019 22:00:44 GMT
People keep mentioning using doomies for cloud wall targets. The UA is a way better candidate IMHO. Why? -Same defense -Can Sac pawn to doomies that have tough Now your opponent has to chew through much much more before your cloud wall is broken. I don't disagree (at ALL). I have been mentioning it only because a 9 (or 12) inch cloud wall is shorter than an 18 inch one. And you DO want to spread out so that a drifting AOE is of limited impact on the guys behind. Sac Pawn gets you into that _SEMI_ trap - because to stay within Sac Pawn range you may be bunching up in a non good way. Will demand/require that you make sure what precisely you face. |
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932 
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Post by Ganso on Jan 30, 2019 22:04:56 GMT
I'm not too keen leaning on Cloud Walls too hard since they pretty much are "last year's problem", i.e. most contenders should have an answer by now. Which is why I really think OW2 is better range mitigation if delivering Doomies is your main plan. On the other hand, Butcher_3 is probably the caster that could get the most out of a mobile, layered cloud coverage  |
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mrtuna
Junior Strategist
Posts: 117
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Post by mrtuna on Jan 30, 2019 22:12:59 GMT
If you are playing old witch 2 and are keeping up the 18" no shoot bubble, do you ALSO want clouds? Or is that a bit overkill?
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Post by sand20go on Jan 30, 2019 22:24:33 GMT
I'm not too keen leaning on Cloud Walls too hard since they pretty much are "last year's problem", i.e. most contenders should have an answer by now. Which is why I really think OW2 is better range mitigation if delivering Doomies is your main plan. On the other hand, Butcher_3 is probably the caster that could get the most out of a mobile, layered cloud coverage Hmmm....do you really think so....or at least in OUR meta? A) Circle? I GUESS they got Twig men but they need 11s to hit the doomies so he is using sprays to boost if he can't place and aim. Problem for Witch is that she doesn't shut those down. Otherwise? B) Skorne - while fish sticks and the Soulward can hand out eyeless sight to a derp but it will need 10s to hit and has no way of buffing up the hits. It _IS_ shut down pretty hard by Witch's windstorm - and even with Repo if it is in range to hit reavers under the spell it is very chargable. Winds probably has enough volume to be a real problem - though spell ward shuts down some of fat mans tricks and reavers even under feat still need 8s to hit clouded Doomies C) CG - shitting for cloud walls but sprays ignore witch so I am not sure they BOTH are not bad. Thus I think Zerkova 1 way up the field with some strong hope aspects. Hexblasting those damm halbies with PM sounds pretty darn good. Ditto Rocketmen - who won't get the order. D) Retribution - probably both the cloud wall and the OW2 windstorm effective - though with Snipe they are out of Z1's bubble but still IN windstorms - though with Snipe they can usually shoot/scoot to where they need to be. No - I am at least pretty convinced that Z1 is the answer. Playing her with MINIMAL practice (maybe tonight?) so I am sure I will suck but unless we get wholescale post ATC changes she will be the boss. Feel FREE to pick apart my thinking here. |
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jan 30, 2019 22:36:03 GMT
Just charge them, duh.
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Post by sand20go on Jan 30, 2019 22:51:58 GMT
I believe our assumption is that the doomies are staying OUT of charge range. This is tech for first turn. |
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jan 31, 2019 0:21:12 GMT
When you can ignore clouds, you can shoot pass the DEF 15 Doomies to the warm gooey center of your army.
Also, don't sprays ignore concealment? Twig men would only need 9 on a boosted attack right? (RAT 4?)
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