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Post by borderprince on Jan 31, 2019 15:11:51 GMT
Ternion clouds never made competitive impact before themes, so I'm very sceptical about them making impact now that they are limited to a theme without really good target for them. I think the point about the clouds now being potentially valuable is they give the Wolves theme a caster-independent method to protect the Doomreavers from shooting on the approach. They've never had that before, and Doomreavers aren't a bad target for the clouds. It helps open the theme up to a wider range of casters I think, which is a good thing. While clouds aren't perfect protection, they are some protection for the meat of the list, especially against more opportunistic shooting. I'm going to be interested to try it out with Vlad2 - mixing clouds + windblast to give a layered anti-shooting defence. Neither of those on their own will probably be enough, but perhaps both together?
Pre-themes isn't a good comparison, as the clouds then cost 7 points on a fragile platform. Clouds for free is different. At most you can say that the Ternion will typically cost the equivalent of 4 points, as you choose them over a free Koldun Lord or other Greylord solo. That also relates to hocestbellum's point about taking more Doomreavers - the Ternion are free, so this isn't an either/or proposition.
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Post by jdeckert on Jan 31, 2019 15:14:21 GMT
Too many people to quote here, but some good points.
1. "The clouds on doom reavers is not that big of a deal." I agree with this. This isn't a new cloud wall, this isn't great defensive tech for doom reavers, it doesn't make the ternion dramatically better. But - if we're evaluating the claim of whether ternion got better or worse - you have to admit that being able to put clouds on reavers and Fenris is strictly better than not being able to. This might be a small upgrade, but it's by definition an upgrade.
2. "The ternion still isn't worth 7 points." This is also true. If they weren't a free option, I would virtually never run them. Making them free doesn't feel like the best way to make them viable to me, but it does make them viable so I can't complain too much. So the ternion changes aren't ideal, but they don't have to collect dust any more.
3. "Losing frostbite is a big loss, they were premier anti-infantry clearers before." I don't agree with this. I had Ternion in my I5 list, so I've played their old version a fair amount relatively recently. I did get work out of frostbite, but if they're clearing a bunch of infantry with it you already lost the game, because that means your opponent has a lot of infantry left on turn 3-4. I sometimes got 2 or even 3 targets under frostbite, but they were typically harder targets. So it was okay. The nicer thing about it was ignoring the firing into melee penalty. Because ternion are getting to the fight late, a lot of stuff is already engaged. That said, I can remember most of the times I got mileage out of frostbite, and having bonds of woe would have been pretty equal overall. Sometimes frost bite would have been better, sometimes bonds of woe would have been, sometimes they'd have been pretty comparable. That's why I called it a lateral shift.
FWIW on frostbite, I've had 3 units of ternion since I started Khador. I tried them as infantry clearers with Vlad1 in Mk2 where infantry was everywhere. It went poorly. The lack of survivability doesn't lend them to clearing the enemy front line.
If I still had a choice - if the new CID rules were Greylord Dread Sages and you could take either them or the Ternion for free, I'd take the new rules more than half the time. Maybe all the time.
As noted, they still have ice cage, which is nice. If they had lost that and only had the clouds and bonds of woe, I'd agree they got worse. As-is, I think the value of their actual rules stayed about the same. Being able to include them for free is great. Really, that means they cost 3-4 points as noted above, because you're going to pay 3-4 points for an escort or koldun lord that would have otherwise been free. I think they're worth that. They're not amazing, they're not going to have a big impact every game, but they should do a little something in most every game. They're probably worth 4.
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Post by The Snark Knight on Jan 31, 2019 15:14:40 GMT
I'm pretty sure the Greylords don't even do anything for the Reavers that couldn't just be achieved by taking more Reavers. Help them survive? Take more in the first place! Bring some back? Take more in the first place! Ice cage isn't really replicable in this way unless you go for 'more attacks = more accuracy', in which case... Attacks missing? Make more attacks! This. Probably not worth taking until you don't have the option to take more Doom Reavers. Taking them for free is just fine.
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Post by jdeckert on Jan 31, 2019 15:22:38 GMT
I'm pretty sure the Greylords don't even do anything for the Reavers that couldn't just be achieved by taking more Reavers. Help them survive? Take more in the first place! Bring some back? Take more in the first place! Ice cage isn't really replicable in this way unless you go for 'more attacks = more accuracy', in which case... Attacks missing? Make more attacks! This. Probably not worth taking until you don't have the option to take more Doom Reavers. Taking them for free is just fine. I mean, yeah - I wouldn't take them for 7 points. I wouldn't take them in a list where dropping them lets me add more doom reavers. But all of the wolves lists I've ran or am looking at include at least one unit, and none of those lists could take more doom reavers if I dropped them. I could drop them to take another CA or Forge Seer, so that's a more relevant comparison.
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Post by sand20go on Jan 31, 2019 15:40:26 GMT
You guys play in a different meta than I do. The idea of putting up a cheap cloud wall on Doomies that are tough and innately Def 13 is really really REALLY good. Especially since you may well have Grelords willing and ready to start bringing them back.
The additional issue here is that we are assuming you are not bringing "Generic caster A". You are brining SOMETHING that synergizes with the list and with spell warded doomies.
off top of head.
Irusk2. Now they are no knockdown Def 13/15 tough doomies and they can be up to 14 inches away from Irusk2. NNuff said. Irusk1. turn that matters they are likely Super tough. I don't LIKE I1 as much as i2 but we are going through the stuff. Sorscha1 - Not a ton of help here. They are getting FOW benefits and she is really hard to shoot off the board and sprays were nice. Score one for the DreadLords Butchers - All of them enjoy a cloud wall that soaks up shots and blocks LOS until the doomies die. Provides opportunities to play up the field. Butcher 2 and 3 especially appreciate the fact that the clouds could be LAYERED. So some on a front line of doomies and then MORE on the Argus. PLEASE SHOOT THEM. PLEASE!!!! Zerkova1 and 2. They REALLY like the cloud wall. Z1 could layer or extend the wall a ridiculous distance to help avoid getting enveloped - a standard tactic against her. 2 likes them if she can't feat and kill - giving her another turn to work into position. OW2 - yes. Redudant in all likelihood - score 2 Dreads Andy2 - LOVES cloud wall doomies. See Prowl. Vlad2 - Argument could be made that some vlad games will be ones in which he FEATS on cloud walled Doomies. So now DEF 16/18 tough with ARM 17 with a mass of others behind.
I may be missing something but EVERYWHERE I look there are great uses for a FREE (or 3) point 3 man unit with a 9 inch cloud wall anchored by 1.6 point models with tough that the cloud wall producer can bring back.
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mrtuna
Junior Strategist
Posts: 117
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Post by mrtuna on Jan 31, 2019 15:46:01 GMT
OW2 - yes. Redudant in all likelihood - score 2 Dreads Are cloud walls not good turn 1 still with OW2? OW2 turn 1: Deploy 7" + move 6"+ 18" no-shoot bubble goes out to 31" in the very center of the board, much less on flanks. Reavers turn1: Deploy 13" + apper 2" + run 12" = 27" up the board. This is far too far up the board for the OW2 bubble to help. If Reavers have cloud, I think this lets OW2 RUN up the board turn 1, which sets her up for a better turn2 feat turn - so her re-roll failed attack bubble actually helps her reavers
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Post by hocestbellum on Jan 31, 2019 15:51:15 GMT
The thing with all this Reaver-anchored cloud wall stuff is... what on earth do you think your opponent wants to attack? If you have wall-to-wall Doom Reavers, the priority is killing the ones closest to you. Conveniently, these are the ones you can shoot, and killing them gets rid of the cloud wall.
And if you're thinking of putting the Clouds on the Greylords with Sac Pawn, that's great! You're either letting me kill your officer, or you're pawning the shots on to the other things I want to kill anyway.
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Post by P'tit Nico on Jan 31, 2019 15:55:07 GMT
It's not just the cloud wall. It's also the concealment it provides. A lot of stuff don't ignore concealment, and going from DEF 13 to 15 helps a lot!
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Post by auraco on Jan 31, 2019 15:56:54 GMT
I see the move from frostbite to bond of woe as a sidegrade at worst, having an extra two inche of range can be very releveant and also having an attack that doesn't rely on frost can make a big difference in some match ups. The RFP and recursion are all situational, but when you add all the situational advantage of bond of woe it's very rarely going to be a strait up downgrade to frostbite. I agree that I wouldn't take them for 7 points, but they are a free option and we can't really dismiss them if only for that. Forge seers are horrible and people still take them in Jaws because they are a free option, the same can be said for a lot of models.
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Post by sand20go on Jan 31, 2019 16:07:08 GMT
The thing with all this Reaver-anchored cloud wall stuff is... what on earth do you think your opponent wants to attack? If you have wall-to-wall Doom Reavers, the priority is killing the ones closest to you. Conveniently, these are the ones you can shoot, and killing them gets rid of the cloud wall. And if you're thinking of putting the Clouds on the Greylords with Sac Pawn, that's great! You're either letting me kill your officer, or you're pawning the shots on to the other things I want to kill anyway. My opponents need and want to kill doomies EFFICIENTLY. They don't WANT to use power tokens on the Dawnsled to hit them or shoot multiple times with the Derp. They want to find ways of getting off efficient and effective AOEs, spells (that don't need a target) sprays targetting just the right model that is deep to catch 3-4 models. And my opponents (excruciatingly) take the time to proxy measure ALL of the above. Let me put it another way (and then probably drop this). If you play against Cruciable guard you know how irritating those stupid prowling cloud wall alchemists are. Doomies are INFINATELY better. Anyway, I am going Z1 with a cloud wall this weekend. I will report back. Since I have played her like 3 times total in my life I expect to get bulldozed. If it performs....well happy do da dey!
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Post by sand20go on Jan 31, 2019 16:08:28 GMT
The thing with all this Reaver-anchored cloud wall stuff is... what on earth do you think your opponent wants to attack? If you have wall-to-wall Doom Reavers, the priority is killing the ones closest to you. Conveniently, these are the ones you can shoot, and killing them gets rid of the cloud wall. And if you're thinking of putting the Clouds on the Greylords with Sac Pawn, that's great! You're either letting me kill your officer, or you're pawning the shots on to the other things I want to kill anyway. Have to lay it out. One downside is that Clouds do not block LOS to Huge based models. Windstorm makes this less of a factor but it does mean that you can shoot AOEs at her and hope they drift into Doomies.
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Post by The Snark Knight on Jan 31, 2019 16:22:56 GMT
Butcher 2 and 3 especially appreciate the fact that the clouds could be LAYERED. So some on a front line of doomies and then MORE on the Argus. PLEASE SHOOT THEM. PLEASE!!!! I think I'm actually gonna take this idea and run with it.
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Post by maxmaino on Jan 31, 2019 16:28:11 GMT
I tink Kayazi assassins are the better target for the cloud.
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mrtuna
Junior Strategist
Posts: 117
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Post by mrtuna on Jan 31, 2019 16:38:53 GMT
I tink Kayazi assassins are the better target for the cloud. This is true, but thats 19 points for a full unit. That could be almost 10 more doomies and a free unit.
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Post by sand20go on Jan 31, 2019 18:06:43 GMT
I tink Kayazi assassins are the better target for the cloud. This is true, but thats 19 points for a full unit. That could be almost 10 more doomies and a free unit. AND assassins are not tough and die to blasts a lot more than Doomies and don't (without help) hit as hard and threaten 1.5 inch less AND can not apparate.
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