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Post by beardmonk on Jan 24, 2019 10:01:33 GMT
I understand the point your making but IMO I'm not sure it holds up in all cases. In the case of Trollbloods, our infantry all fill distinct different roles and are priced according to their output and effectiveness. Removing warriors, champs, fens and warders from the game would not only melt the community, it would make the game worse.
However, when you come to factions like Khador or Cygnar the issue with some of their infantry is they are not really distinct enough. Winterguard infantry are meant to pretty much be cheap conscripts style troops. Rifle Corps are meant to the trained troops but their stat line and output is pretty much the same. Rather than reducing the two units into one, id make them more distinct in terms of stats but price them accordingly.
I agree that PP has pumped out lots of named solos over the years and only a handful see regular play. I wouldn't get rind of any. Id just suggest to PP that they cut down on making any more.
The other option would be to make most of the generic solos like "widow maker marksman" etc into another unit attachment so the only solos left were for the most part were the names one like Gibbs, De La Rovisi etc. So in a tabletop sense the role of these named solos changes from being "another generic support for unit x" and more into capturing flags and zones and eradicating other solos.
I'm not fully onboard with this, but again, I understand the issue you want to address. I think that the more specialist the jack/beast/unit then the lower the FA should be. If this jack represents the peak of Cygnar engineering, taking hundreds of specialised mechanics months to produce, then you shouldn't be able to bring a whole army of them, FA:1. Is this unit full of conscripted peasants with little to no skill? Then bring as many as you points will allow, FA:U.
I would welcome PP announcing that they were going to review how themes work but I don't really have an alternative to offer. Mk3 themes have made many list very formulaic in their nature. I would like themes that create thematic lists that give you a slight bonus but also have a downside. So its a tactical choice, rather than a "how many free points can I get".
But linking into your comments about FA and casters, if I was king for a day in PP I would say that maybe something that themes or caster could change the FA of certain units or jacks/beasts. Nemo3 is the king of advanced lightning technology, therefore he can have FA:3 of that normally FA:1 advanced lightning jack, for example
I'm not sure that a new edition is on the cards right now. CID has done a lot of good work in patching the bugs that made the launch of Mk3 such a disaster.
What PP needs is to be better at communicating and advertising to the rest of the wargaming community. While their links to their own player base is quite strong, the rest of the wargaming world seems to view WM/H in a very negative light. Almost every post/thread etc on other gaming websites seems to indicate that WM/H is dead world wide, PP is a week away from going under etc. When, despite the Female Doging and bad times at the launch of Mk3 things are very much on the up. GW is great at advertising. PP should be much more proactive.
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Post by copperflame on Jan 24, 2019 15:42:06 GMT
This is also why I don't play any magic beyond Commander. I absolutely hate having to pursue what is "current," and will not be doing so for warmachine. You can play Commander because Magic stayed relevant thanks to Type 2. And people can enjoy 8ed 40k because GW concentrated on what sells instead of wasting R&D budget on updating Squats. Anyone that sincerely wants this game around for the next five to ten years should welcome SKU consolidation and limited formats. Commander was not a Wizard product - it was a format created by players (and is still controlled by a council of players, though Wizards definitely has a huge say on that council and produces the product). But Commander did not stay relevant because of Type 2. Commander stayed relevant because it focused on factors like: - Utilizing the entire library of magic cards (except those that were banded because of bad game play experience)
- Multiplayer format where you could play with 3-6 of your friends instead just 1v1
- Promoting creativity, social interactions/politics, and game play experience
I can go on but I do not believe there is much support for 'Type 2 made Commander possible'. Note, I only play Commander also. BUT I will also say, that any new cards coming out - I keep an eye on to think about if it would be good in one of the 23 Commander Decks I own (okay... I think I may have a problem). I do consistently pick up new cards. I do not participate in Releases (except Battle Bond that was designed around multiplayer) or Modern. The longer value and whaky creativity of Commander is what and where I enjoy my efforts. What does all that have to do with WarmaHordes? I'm not sure... I think there is wisdom to be had from looking at what has been successful in other games. Magic the Gathering is doing well between two very different formats (ignoring the gambling hook that is opening packs). Maybe there is something that can be learned there. YMMV
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pmark
Demo Gamer
Posts: 17
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Post by pmark on Jan 24, 2019 15:43:51 GMT
I would welcome PP announcing that they were going to review how themes work but I don't really have an alternative to offer. Mk3 themes have made many list very formulaic in their nature. I would like themes that create thematic lists that give you a slight bonus but also have a downside. So its a tactical choice, rather than a "how many free points can I get". Agree. Look at Infinity. That's how you do theme armies well. I want to like themes, I really do, I like the idea of thematic sub-factions, but not in their current state.
Also agree. Whenever I'm talking to people in the wider community, everyone berates PP and call the game bad. It's nearly like when I started with wargames and everyone swore at GW every time it even got mentioned.
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Post by Korianneder on Jan 24, 2019 15:54:41 GMT
I would welcome PP announcing that they were going to review how themes work but I don't really have an alternative to offer. Mk3 themes have made many list very formulaic in their nature. I would like themes that create thematic lists that give you a slight bonus but also have a downside. So its a tactical choice, rather than a "how many free points can I get". Agree. Look at Infinity. That's how you do theme armies well. I want to like themes, I really do, I like the idea of thematic sub-factions, but not in their current state.
Also agree. Whenever I'm talking to people in the wider community, everyone berates PP and call the game bad. It's nearly like when I started with wargames and everyone swore at GW every time it even got mentioned.
People Female Dog about WoW and blizzard. They say league of legends is dead. People Female Doging about stuff is as much a meme as anything at this point. Also wheres all this GW advertising? I've never seen any GW advertising unless I go to their website. GW doesn't go to cons that I've ever seen. The entire back cover of the gencon program last year was monpoc and they had advertisement everywhere. I see a ads for warhammer video games but that doesn't get me interested in their tabletop. Is it a United states vs Europe sort of thing? Most local retailers around here have a bigger warmachine section than games workshop section.
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Post by Charistoph on Jan 24, 2019 16:08:53 GMT
I would welcome PP announcing that they were going to review how themes work but I don't really have an alternative to offer. Mk3 themes have made many list very formulaic in their nature. I would like themes that create thematic lists that give you a slight bonus but also have a downside. So its a tactical choice, rather than a "how many free points can I get". Agree. Look at Infinity. That's how you do theme armies well. I want to like themes, I really do, I like the idea of thematic sub-factions, but not in their current state.
In order to do it like Infinity, most units and non-Character Solos will have to have their FA reduced by 1 (if not TO 1), so it can be raised by 1 in the Theme. For those who are FA:U and the Jacks/Beasts, they'll need to be accepted or made FA:2-3 (possibly again) when out of Theme.
In other words, if you want to do Gun Bunny Spam, you would HAVE to take Irregulars, not just want to take Irregulars, otherwise, you wouldn't be able to take that many Gun Bunnies.
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Post by MrHaystacks on Jan 24, 2019 16:36:23 GMT
Agree. Look at Infinity. That's how you do theme armies well. I want to like themes, I really do, I like the idea of thematic sub-factions, but not in their current state.
Also agree. Whenever I'm talking to people in the wider community, everyone berates PP and call the game bad. It's nearly like when I started with wargames and everyone swore at GW every time it even got mentioned.
People Female Dog about WoW and blizzard. They say league of legends is dead. People Female Doging about stuff is as much a meme as anything at this point. Also wheres all this GW advertising? I've never seen any GW advertising unless I go to their website. GW doesn't go to cons that I've ever seen. The entire back cover of the gencon program last year was monpoc and they had advertisement everywhere. I see a ads for warhammer video games but that doesn't get me interested in their tabletop. Is it a United states vs Europe sort of thing? Most local retailers around here have a bigger warmachine section than games workshop section. GW (in the UK, cant talk for elsewhere) has exclusive stores dotted in most towns. On top of many independents having at least some models, they are just pervasive. You walk past and see awesome things in windows. Where there is a VERY small WMH community in the UK. I see some stuff in Manchester but not much and hardly played. Ive mostly stopped playing due to lack of players. The GW games feed back into it by reaching out to markets that wouldn't normally be interested. The fluff and world building is of such high quality even if people don't play 40k/AoS they can still get involved.
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pmark
Demo Gamer
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Post by pmark on Jan 24, 2019 18:04:47 GMT
Is it a United states vs Europe sort of thing? Most local retailers around here have a bigger warmachine section than games workshop section. I think EU/US definitely has a role in it. GW is a Brittish company.
All I know is that all the shops around there are GW-centered. It's not just selling the stuff, but sharing new releases, hyping the audience, hosting events, having regular gaming nights, etc.
When they did it for Warmachine too, Warmachine was going strong. Then, GW righted itself and PP Firetrucked up a lot of things and now it's reversed.
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pmark
Demo Gamer
Posts: 17
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Post by pmark on Jan 24, 2019 18:12:25 GMT
Agree. Look at Infinity. That's how you do theme armies well. I want to like themes, I really do, I like the idea of thematic sub-factions, but not in their current state.
In order to do it like Infinity, most units and non-Character Solos will have to have their FA reduced by 1 (if not TO 1), so it can be raised by 1 in the Theme. For those who are FA:U and the Jacks/Beasts, they'll need to be accepted or made FA:2-3 (possibly again) when out of Theme.
In other words, if you want to do Gun Bunny Spam, you would HAVE to take Irregulars, not just want to take Irregulars, otherwise, you wouldn't be able to take that many Gun Bunnies.
I'd be in peace with that, because I don'tlike spamming. It makes the game less interesting and the table more boring to look at.
However, the FA/AVA is just a part of it. The more important part, IMO, is that the added mechanical benefits of in-theme should be good enough to justify sacrificing the greater flexibility of choices, but not better. Giving out 8-10-15, even 20 pints of free models, for spamming another is not that, in my book.
Actualy, your example might work quite well...
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Post by sand20go on Jan 24, 2019 18:13:49 GMT
I think EU/US definitely has a role in it. GW is a Brittish company.
All I know is that all the shops around there are GW-centered. It's not just selling the stuff, but sharing new releases, hyping the audience, hosting events, having regular gaming nights, etc.
When they did it for Warmachine too, Warmachine was going strong. Then, GW righted itself and PP Firetrucked up a lot of things and now it's reversed.
One county but GW opened 2 stores in San Diego County and a 3rd in an "exurb" that is in our commuteshed. It is essentially a marketing front door. I am sure they break even on rent (class B retail) and a lowly paid employee) but it opens the game up.
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Post by Charistoph on Jan 24, 2019 20:51:41 GMT
In order to do it like Infinity, most units and non-Character Solos will have to have their FA reduced by 1 (if not TO 1), so it can be raised by 1 in the Theme. For those who are FA:U and the Jacks/Beasts, they'll need to be accepted or made FA:2-3 (possibly again) when out of Theme.
In other words, if you want to do Gun Bunny Spam, you would HAVE to take Irregulars, not just want to take Irregulars, otherwise, you wouldn't be able to take that many Gun Bunnies.
I'd be in peace with that, because I don'tlike spamming. It makes the game less interesting and the table more boring to look at.
However, the FA/AVA is just a part of it. The more important part, IMO, is that the added mechanical benefits of in-theme should be good enough to justify sacrificing the greater flexibility of choices, but not better. Giving out 8-10-15, even 20 pints of free models, for spamming another is not that, in my book.
Actualy, your example might work quite well...
True, I was just pointing out the biggest obstacle at the moment. Reworking the Themes and their benefits (once finalized) would be little more than updating a PDF, while reworking the FA requires updating the card database as well as Warroom 2.
Also interesting is that the "Themes" of Infinity (called Sectorials) don't really do much individually different, just offering synergistic activations for groups of (usually the same) models instead of granting each group their own unique things. It would be like every Theme only offering Flank (Warjack) to Warriors and Flank (Warrior) to Warjacks instead of one getting Advance Move, another giving out Pathfinder selectively, etc.
Edit: Another advantage to Infinity is that models usually have few special rules except for a couple few "low FA" models and specialists, and all the weapons are consistent across the board. No funny names, it's a sword, rifle, blunderbuss, mace, spear, etc, and their POW was consistent across the board? Could you imagine if Weapon Master was not on the weapon, but on the model? Powerful Charge was considered the Spear's standard rule? Things like that.
While I have problems with the complexity of Infinity's rolling system, the fact that it has consistent rules across the rules outside of that makes it otherwise, easier to keep up with.
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midas
Read Page 5
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Post by midas on Jan 27, 2019 18:10:30 GMT
i see people wish-listing here again. that's fine, just go on, but don't take it to heart.
btt: the title CEO is misleading, Will and wife are still in charge, for better or worse. The new guy is there to do something about the non existent eurozone sales. He will not have anything to say design wise. He is only in for the EU SALES! But if PP thinks they need an outsider to tell them they need their own warehouse in Europe and translations to the major languages, well... They also better not have screwed the distributors over with the MK3 drop, no idea how Bob is supposed to reinstate that trust. As long as personal projects get major priority over business decisions, very little is going to change.
on a sidenote, what does SKU stand for?
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Post by michael on Jan 27, 2019 18:15:20 GMT
i see people wish-listing here again. that's fine, just go on, but don't take it to heart. btt: the title CEO is misleading, Will and wife are still in charge, for better or worse. The new guy is there to do something about the non existent eurozone sales. He will not have anything to say design wise. He is only in for the EU SALES! But if PP thinks they need an outsider to tell them they need their own warehouse in Europe and translations to the major languages, well... They also better not have screwed the distributors over with the MK3 drop, no idea how Bob is supposed to reinstate that trust. As long as personal projects get major priority over business decisions, very little is going to change. on a sidenote, what does SKU stand for? *in old-timey street peddler voice* Baseless speculation! Loads of supposition! Get your fresh hot speculation here!
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Jan 27, 2019 19:53:54 GMT
i see people wish-listing here again. that's fine, just go on, but don't take it to heart. btt: the title CEO is misleading, Will and wife are still in charge, for better or worse. The new guy is there to do something about the non existent eurozone sales. He will not have anything to say design wise. He is only in for the EU SALES! But if PP thinks they need an outsider to tell them they need their own warehouse in Europe and translations to the major languages, well... They also better not have screwed the distributors over with the MK3 drop, no idea how Bob is supposed to reinstate that trust. As long as personal projects get major priority over business decisions, very little is going to change. on a sidenote, what does SKU stand for? Stock Keeping Unit. It's a unique code given by a manufacturer to products that are sold.
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midas
Read Page 5
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Post by midas on Jan 27, 2019 20:27:07 GMT
*in old-timey street peddler voice* Baseless speculation! Loads of supposition! Get your fresh hot speculation here! not sure if this has an ironic undertone, hard to read between the lines nowadays. it literally says so in the press release: " [Bob Watts...] will help promote greater consistency and quality of service to customers in the UK & EU."
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Post by Charistoph on Jan 27, 2019 20:29:28 GMT
i see people wish-listing here again. that's fine, just go on, but don't take it to heart. btt: the title CEO is misleading, Will and wife are still in charge, for better or worse. The new guy is there to do something about the non existent eurozone sales. He will not have anything to say design wise. He is only in for the EU SALES! But if PP thinks they need an outsider to tell them they need their own warehouse in Europe and translations to the major languages, well... They also better not have screwed the distributors over with the MK3 drop, no idea how Bob is supposed to reinstate that trust. As long as personal projects get major priority over business decisions, very little is going to change. If his job was only sales, the position would be the VP/Manager of Sales or VP/Manager of Foreign/European Sales (depending on the size of the staff). A CEO is in charge of directing all the departments according to the will of the company holders. He may be given a directive to have a focus in improving foreign sales, but he is just as responsible for at least maintaining (if not growing) home sales as well, AND he is responsible for overseeing the direction of development. The "C" in CEO stands for "Chief". Much like the President of the United States may have run on getting out of foreign wars, he is still responsible for directing the Interior as well (usually through his Secretaries who head the Executive Branch's Departments).
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