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Post by chillychinaman on Jan 18, 2019 18:16:48 GMT
With no news of Legion in the foreseeable future, what are the rest of you blights hoping for in terms of theme forces?
In no particular order, and no idea of the greater gameplay/balance implications, I'd like to see the following either added or replace an existing theme benefit:
-Warbeasts gain Flank[Nyss] in CotD. Just wondering, rules as written, would this stack with Flank[Legion Warbeast] on shredders?
-Bloodseer gains Leadership[Nephilim] in CotD similar to Skorne Titans
-RoW gains "Syngergy," as a theme bonus
-Warrior ranged weapons gain Oil in RoW
-Spawning Vessel gains [Spawn Beast] in OoA: Remove 1(3?) tokens to place a non-character, light warbeast with 1 unmarked box in each aspect.
-Typhon & Proteus being added to OoA
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Post by zotz204 on Jan 18, 2019 20:07:16 GMT
Here is my wish list. This is all pretty rough, so not everything may be thought out super well
Ravens: remove beast limits to actually allow some heavy hitters. Replace the grot ambush with something else since the theme already has ambushers. Maybe something shooting-oriented.
Oracles: Split into two separate themes.
Magic theme can give free points for units and give a unit apparition. Allow legionnaires (which would be dropped to 11 points for a max unit). Add some lesser/pot benefits like free lessers, pots starting with tokens, or boosted stats on lessers. Beast theme gives free solos for beasts. Units limited to support stuff and maybe hellmouths. Benefits can be increased deployment and some sort of benefit for beasts. Maybe unyielding to all heavies?
CotD: Split into two themes.
Nephilim theme will requires CID. Either add a generic heavy Nephilim or add huge bonuses to compensate for the extremely limited Battlegroup. I mean something like +2 strength on all lights or something. Hell, give them gang fighter. Cut unyielding to avoid overlapping with new beast theme. Change unit comp, maybe to grots for flavour reasons. Add forsaken. Nyss theme: No Battlegroup limits. Free points based on units. Give a melee unit advance move or something. Doesn’t need to be fancy, just a functioning infantry theme.
PT: it’s fine.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jan 18, 2019 20:16:38 GMT
Off-topic, but what are Forsaken in the fluff? I seem to have forgotten. Are they considered Nyss, Ogrun, or some new mutant race like Succubi or Grotesques?
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Post by zotz204 on Jan 18, 2019 20:32:53 GMT
Off-topic, but what are Forsaken in the fluff? I seem to have forgotten. Are they considered Nyss, Ogrun, or some new mutant race like Succubi or Grotesques? I don’t have the books on me, but I think they are a random mutation that springs up occasionally that are feared/revered by the Nyss. Could be wrong though, it’s been a while since I looked st the books. Edit- Double-checked, it’s a random mutation that happens to Nyss sometimes. Proximity to athancs and the heat of battle can cause it.
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Post by custardboy on Jan 20, 2019 4:42:45 GMT
Ravens- Yeah get rid of ambushing grotesques. Ask non legion players if they even know what blightblades ARE. Allow free stuff for x points of units and solos, add a major advantage of either beasts get repo 3", solos gain mark target or beasts get gang fighter. Add Golab.
CotD- Remove the beast restriction altogether and make it free stuff for units. Consider giving a unit of something ambush seeing as the benefit was removed from Ravens. If they want to keep it nephilim only, I think giving everything unyielding and making it free stuff for every 30 points of units or warbeasts would be a decent compromise. It would make it truly mixed arms in list construction.
Oracles- Magic theme. Free stuff for spawning vessels and models/units with magic ability. Apparition and upkeeps out is good for such a theme. The list would end up with damage issues, so something to fix that too would be good *glances at new Ternion debuff*
Glorious Abominations- New theme for beasts and abominations. In the fluff, Nyss mostly find dragonspawn uncomfortable and have a strange religious terror around things that have been heavily mutated- we remember our nyss fleeing from forsaken in MK2. So this would be all warbeasts, Typhon, shepherds, succubi, spell martyrs, grotesques, forsaken, hellmouths and the throne (I would give these models the 'abomination' tag for list inclusion). Warbeasts gain Mend, +1 to first turn, solos with Abomination get Prodding, free solo for 25 points of beasts or BEs.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jan 22, 2019 12:27:37 GMT
Children of the Dragon and Ravens of War have an interesting possibility; in one of the recent CIDs the Forges of War theme (Shyeel theme) changed from '25 pts warjacks' to '30 points Shyeel models', which allows them to field whatever they want, jacks, units and solos, and still get three bonuses. (The only non-Shyeel model in the theme force is the Trident)
Given that CotD and RoW both have restrictions on warbeast types, I could see the thresholds loosened in a similar manner. So CotD could be '30 points Nephilim and Nyss' and Ravens could be '30 points models/units with flight'.
Then just widen the free model choices a bit and actually allow Forsaken in CotD, and I think you'd be in an interesting place.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Jan 22, 2019 16:27:02 GMT
Off-topic, but what are Forsaken in the fluff? I seem to have forgotten. Are they considered Nyss, Ogrun, or some new mutant race like Succubi or Grotesques? I don’t have the books on me, but I think they are a random mutation that springs up occasionally that are feared/revered by the Nyss. Could be wrong though, it’s been a while since I looked st the books. Edit- Double-checked, it’s a random mutation that happens to Nyss sometimes. Proximity to athancs and the heat of battle can cause it. Really? That makes it's absence in children even worse :/
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Post by maneck on Jan 22, 2019 21:10:48 GMT
Children of the Dragon and Ravens of War have an interesting possibility; in one of the recent CIDs the Forges of War theme (Shyeel theme) changed from '25 pts warjacks' to '30 points Shyeel models', which allows them to field whatever they want, jacks, units and solos, and still get three bonuses. (The only non-Shyeel model in the theme force is the Trident) Given that CotD and RoW both have restrictions on warbeast types, I could see the thresholds loosened in a similar manner. So CotD could be '30 points Nephilim and Nyss' and Ravens could be '30 points models/units with flight'. Then just widen the free model choices a bit and actually allow Forsaken in CotD, and I think you'd be in an interesting place. This is a good suggestion. CotD gets dumped on a lot - but some of its constituent units are good enough that it might not need a complete overhaul to get straightened out. It's a good example of how thematically offensive Legion theme design is. With added context it's understandable how it happened. CoD originally did not have access to Zuriel and Azreal - maybe Privateer Press thought extensive roster restrictions were necessary to balance out free points from themes? Anyway, given that predilection and the lack of heavies in CoD, presumably they thought Forsaken were an easy additional restriction. The result, though, is bonkers. A theme build around Warbeasts, with a tiny roster of Warbeasts and 3 Shepards for help managing Fury. That people can get CoD to work at all shows just how good Raptors/Swordsmen are.
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Post by custardboy on Jan 23, 2019 5:13:48 GMT
Well, raptors are good in some matchups. Swordsmen are nothing to write home about, I've never had them achieve anything in MK3. Way too much trivial infantry hate.
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Post by copperflame on Jan 23, 2019 14:52:53 GMT
I've spoken these words before but I'll try to summarize:
Oracles - dedicate this to a magic theme force, the free points to reflect that and something to support magic slinging (I'm leaning towards something to counter gun lists - like magical winds to reduce the damage of ranged attacks by 1 die. That is not balanced but you get what I'm brewing... )
RoW - enable this theme to really do what the description entails. That may be giving a "Strider" sub-theme a damage boost, a theme wide precision strike or whatever. Maybe long leash for the beasts? It needs fury management (even if that comes from some whaky source like forsaken that fly or shepards with stealth). Oh - and allow Reaks (and other models with Stealth)!
CotD - I think the first thing that needs to happen is a good look and change of the Neph light warbeasts. After that... I would like to see that this either double in on that (I really love the idea of Beast Mistress's being able to pilot lights within a theme) or make it a frightening mixed force where there are synergies between Neph and Infantry (Soliders give Swordmen brutal charge and/or the Solider gains weapon master within 6 inches, - or whatever buff(s))
Abominations - (stealing this from above post) - and yes, a dedicated Beast theme. Crazy fury support, free points accordingly... and maybe a little something extra... (heavies gain Carapace?) (non-Neph lights gain X) (lessers... may need more). But you get the point. Enable a theme for beasts - if that is big stoppy ones or a swarm of lessers or anything in between.
You were probably looking for more detailed specifics. >.>
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Post by chillychinaman on Jan 23, 2019 21:12:04 GMT
Thanks for all the responses.
What kinda of benefit would fit well for a infantry-focused Nyss theme? On one hand, advance deployment, advance movement, ambush, and pathfinder would really help them get around, I would rather see something that either supports them or synergizes with them rather than a flat buff. Perhaps free Spawning Vessel and spawnable Incubi? Or maybe a rule that gives beasts a DEF/ARM buff to Nyss?
In addition, as much as I like Oracles, I don't think there is enough magic in faction to create a theme based around it. I too would rather see it become a monsters/beast theme with Proteus and/or Typhon, Hellmouths and a full beast stable. Something like Rapid Healing might be more appropriate than carapace to increase our beast survivability while still retaining Legion's squishiness.
Finally, as for Ravens, does the community like the theme lacks attack power or tricks? Firepower would be easy enough to buff with things like Gang Fighter or Oil and some possible tricks could include free animi casts for the nice selection of utility animi on our fliers and lights or perhaps counter-charge.
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Post by zotz204 on Jan 24, 2019 0:18:32 GMT
Thanks for all the responses. What kinda of benefit would fit well for a infantry-focused Nyss theme? On one hand, advance deployment, advance movement, ambush, and pathfinder would really help them get around, I would rather see something that either supports them or synergizes with them rather than a flat buff. Perhaps free Spawning Vessel and spawnable Incubi? Or maybe a rule that gives beasts a DEF/ARM buff to Nyss? In addition, as much as I like Oracles, I don't think there is enough magic in faction to create a theme based around it. I too would rather see it become a monsters/beast theme with Proteus and/or Typhon, Hellmouths and a full beast stable. Something like Rapid Healing might be more appropriate than carapace to increase our beast survivability while still retaining Legion's squishiness. Finally, as for Ravens, does the community like the theme lacks attack power or tricks? Firepower would be easy enough to buff with things like Gang Fighter or Oil and some possible tricks could include free animi casts for the nice selection of utility animi on our fliers and lights or perhaps counter-charge. 1. I’d like to see advanced move on Nyss w/o ranged weapons, maybe. Alternately, do something like guardians in PoM and add a bunch of defensive rules to Legonnaires. Free vessels would be fine as an option, but I wouldn’t want them to be the focus of the theme. 2. I agree with you. This is why I’d like Oracles split in two. The magic side would need some new releases to be fleshed out. For beasts, a theme that provides any defensive buffs to the landsharks would be nice, I’d take either carapace or regen. 3. My problem with Ravens is that it is too much focused on the tricks. It needs some hitting power, and I think opening up the beast selection to all non-characters instead of just flyers would help a bunch.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jan 25, 2019 18:16:39 GMT
As a more general question, would people rather see the restrictive themes open up to allow more/all beasts or more buffs to the existing beast selection that make them viable?
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Post by zotz204 on Jan 25, 2019 18:48:22 GMT
As a more general question, would people rather see the restrictive themes open up to allow more/all beasts or more buffs to the existing beast selection that make them viable? Yes, the themes should be opened up. It is ludicrous that fully 50% of Legion units cannot be taken in the same theme as the standard dragonspawn chassis. BGs should only be restricted in very specific cases, such as the two Circle themes which each provide significant benefits. Our stuff is more like at Cygnar’s gun mage theme back when it had BG restrictions.
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