shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Jan 18, 2019 3:10:06 GMT
Most people can afford a loaf of bread costing 50$ but I don't think anyone would buy it (that's unless they really enjoy being leeched off).
What's wrong with people freely giving their money away for something they enjoy? At this point I think I've spent just as much money on things around WM/H as I have on miniatures. Things other people don't find any value on, like my 5 Battlefoam bags (and all the custom cut Foam I ordered), my Kolinsky Sable brushes, my airbrush setup (I already own more airbrushes than I have arms), and just this weekend my wife and I went to Ikea and spent several hundred dollars on cabinets for my hobby supplies (because I was tired of keeping them in stacks of plastic containers). Do I feel leeched? No, cause it's the way I engage with my hobby and it brings me joy. The key to the point I was making is perceived value. That was the point that Cyel stated he agreed on. It isn't the price, most people who go in on this hobby can afford it, we all know what it costs, the difference is the value. When the HHH was announced, I was flat out irritated (even as a non-troll player). Not that it cost 175.00. I have several Trijicon sight for some of my field rifles that are well over 1k each. (and I have several that cost TONS of money, trust me, mini wargaming is a cheap hobby) so it isn't the price, its the perceived value. Is this model worth it? For some, it absolutely was, but for many, it really wasn't and that's really the point that is being made here.
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Post by frumiousbandersnatch on Jan 18, 2019 4:54:17 GMT
Personally I budget $500 per month for stupid hobbies. jfc can you adopt me or something please? I'll paint your minis, cook. I don't know. I don't spend $500 per year on things I enjoy lol. I buy a handful of new things and other than that flip armies, trade, and trawl my local swap meets, ebay, bartertown, facebook groups, etc for deals.
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mrtuna
Junior Strategist
Posts: 117
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Post by mrtuna on Jan 18, 2019 12:22:01 GMT
Personally I budget $500 per month for stupid hobbies. jfc can you adopt me or something please? I'll paint your minis, cook. I don't know. I don't spend $500 per year on things I enjoy lol. I buy a handful of new things and other than that flip armies, trade, and trawl my local swap meets, ebay, bartertown, facebook groups, etc for deals. Different people have different scales of life. Not really good or bad just different. Think of all the people you see driving a Tesla X with a $1000 a month car payment. Out of my budget. To someone making a nice wage though, just a drop in a bucket. Point wasn’t to debate scale of life, point is that different players have different money situations. For me, WMH is s great value and I’d love to support PP more. I want to give a counterpoint to the overpriced narrative. Surly prices could come down with cheaper quality but I want the reverse.
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Jan 18, 2019 13:01:57 GMT
jfc can you adopt me or something please? I'll paint your minis, cook. I don't know. I don't spend $500 per year on things I enjoy lol. I buy a handful of new things and other than that flip armies, trade, and trawl my local swap meets, ebay, bartertown, facebook groups, etc for deals. Different people have different scales of life. Not really good or bad just different. Think of all the people you see driving a Tesla X with a $1000 a month car payment. Out of my budget. To someone making a nice wage though, just a drop in a bucket. Point wasn’t to debate scale of life, point is that different players have different money situations. For me, WMH is s great value and I’d love to support PP more. I want to give a counterpoint to the overpriced narrative. Surly prices could come down with cheaper quality but I want the reverse. That's actually a huge frustration with their models. If Wyrd can use HIPS, why cant PP. I actually wouldnt mind paying more for all the smaller stuff knowing that all their stuff will be better quality
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Jan 18, 2019 13:20:40 GMT
Sooo, it is a pricey hobby, but so are a lot of hobbies. I know my personal budget for “new” models is fairly limited, and it’s even harder when you have to increase the price seen on the website because I live in Canada, but it’s still not as bad as warhammer imo. Although that being said I can see the price being a bigger problem in EU as your shipping is probably even worse than Canada, but at least exchange rate is in your favour I guess :/
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Post by mcdermott on Jan 18, 2019 20:24:23 GMT
Nintendo Switch: ~300 dollars, no extra games PS4 with Red Dead redemption: ~400 dollars, no extra games Xbox 1 with one non terrible game: ~ 350 dollars nintendo Wii: ~2-300 dollars
tournament placing Ork 40k list ~500 dollars
I'm pretty over the price point argument...europeans may have a point due to their VAT, but they can probably count on that applying to GW stuff post Brexit too.
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Jan 18, 2019 21:28:07 GMT
Nintendo Switch: ~300 dollars, no extra games PS4 with Red Dead redemption: ~400 dollars, no extra games Xbox 1 with one non terrible game: ~ 350 dollars nintendo Wii: ~2-300 dollars tournament placing Ork 40k list ~500 dollars I'm pretty over the price point argument...europeans may have a point due to their VAT, but they can probably count on that applying to GW stuff post Brexit too. Wait, who was arguing over price point? I think the discussion was perceived value, which is wholly subjective, but I don't think anyone was arguing over price point. No one I know complains about the actual dollar amount. Almost everyone I know complains about the dollar amount when its crappy resin, or shitty PVC plastic, cause that doesn't feel very premium, and in the world of tabletop games, we are every bit paying a premium price tag. Again, wholly subjective.
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Post by mcdermott on Jan 18, 2019 23:04:06 GMT
Those subjective people should go enjoy the things they find worthwhile, because if you want to talk about what creates a death spiral, its people snivelling about how much a thing they don't REALLY want to play anymore costs all over forums and social media.
The prices aren't going to go down in any significant way which makes complaining about it pissing into a hurricane.
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Jan 19, 2019 7:30:58 GMT
Those subjective people should go enjoy the things they find worthwhile, because if you want to talk about what creates a death spiral, its people snivelling about how much a thing they don't REALLY want to play anymore costs all over forums and social media. The prices aren't going to go down in any significant way which makes complaining about it pissing into a hurricane. Not sure what your problem is, the game is great. No one I know here will argue that. The value on the miniatures is lacking. Its mind boggling why a company like PP won't do HIPS by a much smaller company like Wyrd can do HIPS, in much better, much higher resolution, with better-looking results and finer modules and components, and for about the same cost. Stating that there is some discontent, and discussing it in a rational way is hardly warranting of "those subjective people should just go ..." Its almost as if you are setting up the argument that only people who agree with you should be allowed to discuss the game...
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jan 19, 2019 8:59:51 GMT
Its mind boggling why a company like PP won't do HIPS by a much smaller company like Wyrd can do HIPS, in much better, much higher resolution, with better-looking results and finer modules and components, and for about the same cost. [/quote] But you have the answer right here in this topic in some of the posts above. Why improve and compete if you have enough customers who will throw huge amounts of money at your product regardless of its quality and price. I guess it is subjective, but I, with my general anti-consumerism stance, don't see just having money as an instant obligation to spend this money, especially on things you don't need (I can't see anyone make actual use of 500$ of hobby stuff in a month, month after month). It just encourages companies to try out more and more abusive tactics with pricing and quality and in general being such an indiscriminate customer creates a market where companies feel free to dictate absurd conditions.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Feb 3, 2019 10:47:54 GMT
I've just stumbled upon another example of a CMON game, which can be a counter-argument to all those who still believe Warmachine isn't an expensive game, compared to the competition. For a price of 2 WM units you get HATE(approx. a hundred models, including large ones+ board, cards, tokens etc.) PP are just quite abusive with their prices, seeing that they can afford this with their fanbase. You can, for instance, compare Monsterpocalypse with the above game (crappy thin "boards" and just a handful of miniatures) or PP's artbook (or rather a VERY expensive single universal merc) kickstarter aimed at its customers who never feel ripped off, no matter the quality and price.
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Post by beardmonk on Feb 3, 2019 12:10:17 GMT
Price is a large bugbear for me. But quite frankly in the 2nd hand market, its a buyer market.
PP recently re-released the Cryx BloodGorgers as a plastic/resin set. £86 for 10 plastic/resin models on 40mm bases..... That. is. Totally. Unacceptable. Especially when you may well want/need 2 units for themes. Northkin Raiders, about the same price
I am very positive about the state of the game, im interested in whatatever the new CEO is going to bring, keen to see what SR2019 and any new scenario packs contain. But i am only able to play this game because of how much ebay has provided me and the fact that the resell price for second and and NIB Trollbloods are. While im aware that plastic models are expensive, PP is far beyond the envelope in terms of pricing.
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Post by frumiousbandersnatch on Feb 3, 2019 15:26:09 GMT
Price is a large bugbear for me. But quite frankly in the 2nd hand market, its a buyer market. PP recently re-released the Cryx BloodGorgers as a plastic/resin set. £86 for 10 plastic/resin models on 40mm bases..... That. is. Totally. Unacceptable. Especially when you may well want/need 2 units for themes. Northkin Raiders, about the same price I am very positive about the state of the game, im interested in whatatever the new CEO is going to bring, keen to see what SR2019 and any new scenario packs contain. But i am only able to play this game because of how much ebay has provided me and the fact that the resell price for second and and NIB Trollbloods are. While im aware that plastic models are expensive, PP is far beyond the envelope in terms of pricing. For what it's worth, those models are $90 on PP's website. Could be Englanders are just getting Firetrucked. $90 is not much better, though, but it's also not anymore expensive than they were. Ask any Troll player what it cost them to get their unit of Kriel Warriors when they were still 6 man boxes + blisters. Oof. PP models have always been super expensive, but they are really failing to adapt to the market where other companies are releasing cheaper minis in big bundles or where games that charge elite prices for minis requiring a much smaller collection (e.g. Infinity). They are kind of between a rock and a hard place here, though. The resin/white metal sculpts come out looking fantastic, but in some cases they are more expensive than PP has ever been. They're plastic units tend to be cheaper, but the quality is god awful. I don't know if their cost is so high they feel they need to set such a high price to be successful, but clearly something isn't quite working here. For $90 I probably get an overall smaller hunk of pewter, but I get full 300pt playable army from CB.
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Post by cainuslupus on Feb 3, 2019 16:25:18 GMT
jfc can you adopt me or something please? I'll paint your minis, cook. I don't know. I don't spend $500 per year on things I enjoy lol. I buy a handful of new things and other than that flip armies, trade, and trawl my local swap meets, ebay, bartertown, facebook groups, etc for deals. Different people have different scales of life. Not really good or bad just different. Think of all the people you see driving a Tesla X with a $1000 a month car payment. Out of my budget. To someone making a nice wage though, just a drop in a bucket. Point wasn’t to debate scale of life, point is that different players have different money situations. For me, WMH is s great value and I’d love to support PP more. I want to give a counterpoint to the overpriced narrative. Surly prices could come down with cheaper quality but I want the reverse. Wait, even worse quality?! They can drop it even more? Wow.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Feb 3, 2019 17:23:57 GMT
I like the game very much, but were it not for the second-hand market and cheaper (and nicer) alternative models from other manufacturers, I wouldn't play it for sure.
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