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Post by tjhairball on Jan 5, 2019 17:32:24 GMT
To a large degree, these are based on my collection's contents. I'm rusty as all get-out. Any particular thoughts? Khador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf [Old Witch 1] The Old Witch of Khador [+18] - Behemoth [25] - Kodiak [13] - Kodiak [13] - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, the Seeker [4] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Yuri the Axe [0(6)] Alexia Ciannor & the Risen [10] - Koldun Kapitan Valachev [4] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Kossite Woodsmen (min) [7] Kossite Woodsmen (min) [7] Khador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Armored Corps [Sorscha 3] Kommandant Sorscha Kratikoff [+28] - Beast 09 [18] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] - War Dog [3] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Man-O-War Drakhun [9] Man-O-War Kovnik [0(4)] Battle Mechaniks (max) [5] - Battle Mechanik Officer [3] Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard [7] Man-O-War Bombardiers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Bombardier Officer [0(5)] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4] |
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Post by borderprince on Jan 5, 2019 18:52:46 GMT
For OW1:
(1) She really needs some more hitting power. OW1 can handle quite a bit of infantry by herself, but she struggles if any really heavy armor is on the field. Swapping Kodiaks to Juggernauts would be valuable. If not possible, consider changing at least one to a Marauder so you have something which can take a shot at huge bases.
(2) That's a lot of Kossites! Any particular plan with them?
(3) Once he's out, change Sylys to the Greylord Adjunct.
For Sorscha3:
Consider getting Kodiaks over Marauders. They're faster (when running), so work well with Stoke the Fires and chain attack means you get an extra attack with Flank. Trimming the mechaniks to min and losing the officer are obvious points to go but messes up your points for free stuff. You could drop the war dog + mechanik UA and pay for the Kovnik with points. That lets you upgrade one Marauder to a Kodiak and leaves one slot of free stuff open to you.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Jan 5, 2019 20:53:59 GMT
I'd also swap the Bombardiers for Demo Corps.
You want stuff to be in melee to set up flank and she can freeze stuff for them to shatter.
Also drop the War Dog. That models is iffy to begin with and Sorscha can just freeze things and move away if things gets tense and hands out countercharge anyway.
I guess the most bogstandard Sorscha3 AC list would look like this:
Khador Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Armored Corps
(Sorscha 3) Kommandant Sorscha Kratikoff[+28]
[*]Kodiak [13]
[*]Kodiak [13]
[*]Kodiak [13]
[*]Greylord Adjunct [4]
Man-O-War Drakhun [9]
Man-O-War Kovnik [4]
Man-O-War Strike Tanker [0(5)]
Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)]
Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)]
Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard [7]
Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14][*]Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich [6]
Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max)[16][*]Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4]
Adjunct could be a Forge Seer, Saxon or Ragman, Jack loudout could be Beast/Kodiak/Berserker (same points), Drakhun could be 3 min mechaniks.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jan 5, 2019 23:49:58 GMT
Okay, for the Sorscha3 list, what other MoW do you have access to?
* Tankers are fantastic value if you have any. I prefer the Strike to the Suppression, particularly on a caster who can poop out a better covering fire on a critical turn
* I would consider the Mechanic Officer, the Mechanics being maxed, and the War Dog to all be flexible points. All told they save you 9, 6 of which need to be MoW to get the third bonus. There's a lot you can do with that which will have more impact than them: Tankers or another Drakhun being the obvious ones.
* If you fancied some slightly more radical changes, you could additionally drop the Drakhun, giving you 18 points. You could then also switch the Bombardiers to Demo Corps, saving two points, for a total of 20. That's enough for another full unit of Shocktroopers if you want to run MAXIMUM BEEFCAKE mode.
* Kodiaks are a good choice in the jack department, as they have speed, pathfinder, some anti-swarm tech, and they just hit like trucks under her. If you're running Beast-09 then a Kodiak + Marauder just lets you get three freebies. If you don't care about the third freebie, then have at.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jan 6, 2019 14:43:35 GMT
Okay, take my advice here with a pinch of salt, as I don't have much experience with the Old Witch, but...
How sold are you on Jaws of the Wolf? I'm thinking about it from a list pairing point of view, and given the crazy hitting power of the S3 list you probably don't need to worry too much about having top-end ARM cracking on OW. I'd lean towards having S3 as your main smashy list, and have OW look more into her excellent anti-infantry abilities in case you come across something that S3 can't deal with effectively.
To that end, I think you should consider Winter Guard Kommand, assuming you have some Winter Guard to use! As it stands you've got 51 points of warjack in your list, which means you've got 42 non-WJ points... that's enough for two freebies in either theme. You wouldn't be able to take Behemoth or the Forge Seer, but you could still fit 4 jacks in there (as well as Scrapjack).
I think it would work quite well, as the jacks can hit the half-way mark on T1 if needed, the WG can be her meatshields if she's threatened. It also represents an excellent drop into melee infantry lists (as the Feat and MoC messes with most of them, giving you an extra round of shooting), as a counterpoint to S3 which is excellent into gunlines due to durability and a cloud wall.
But either way it's worth getting the Adjunct in there when he's out; free cloud, magic weapons, extra upkeep are all good for her.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Jan 6, 2019 17:45:35 GMT
WGK as a dudes-be-gone list and AK for the heavy lifting is the go-to pairing in tournaments as well, no?
So the pairing would make sense!
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Post by borderprince on Jan 6, 2019 18:06:05 GMT
...given the crazy hitting power of the S3 list you probably don't need to worry too much about having top-end ARM cracking on OW... I understand this point, but given the OP said that he/she is rusty, I think it is worth stressing that in Mk3 even a warrior heavy list may well include a reasonable volume of heavy armor: 2-3 heavies or a colossal/gargantuan. As it stands, the suggested OW1 list would really struggle to deal with even that. So having some solid ARM cracking is always a good idea, and the list lacks it at present. |
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jan 6, 2019 19:07:13 GMT
If you’re rusty as all get out, then my first piece of advice for you would be to just take the models you own, put them on the table, and roll some dice.
That said, this is spot on:
- I like having one Marauder and one Kodiak in a Sorscha list. Kodiaks give you much needed pathfinder and infantry clearing, and an extra “initial”. I do like taking 3 jacks, though, and you’ve designed your list to still fit in 60 points of MOW for 3 free models which is good.
- I would never max a Mechanic unit in MOW with an officer. Ever. I would sooner take two units of Mechanics (but I own 2, maybe you don’t) for the adv move.
- I don’t necessarily agree that you “need” to swap the Bombers out for Demos. Both are great units and it depends what you want your list to do.
- The Drakhun is good. You said you were rusty, so I note that if you ditch it you can fit in a 2nd unit of Shocktroopers and it makes you list a LOT more forgiving to being rusty. I’m telling you, ARM 21-23 just fixes a lot of problems with making misplays, but I don’t know if you own a 2nd unit.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jan 6, 2019 19:24:08 GMT
...given the crazy hitting power of the S3 list you probably don't need to worry too much about having top-end ARM cracking on OW... I understand this point, but given the OP said that he/she is rusty, I think it is worth stressing that in Mk3 even a warrior heavy list may well include a reasonable volume of heavy armor: 2-3 heavies or a colossal/gargantuan. As it stands, the suggested OW1 list would really struggle to deal with even that. So having some solid ARM cracking is always a good idea, and the list lacks it at present. I suggested 4 heavies, and there would presumably be at least two units of Winter Guard. So that could be two Juggers, two Marauders, six rockets, for example. If that doesn't count as solid ARM cracking then I'm really not sure what to suggest. |
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Post by tjhairball on Jan 10, 2019 20:25:07 GMT
Okay, for the Sorscha3 list, what other MoW do you have access to? * Tankers are fantastic value if you have any. I prefer the Strike to the Suppression, particularly on a caster who can poop out a better covering fire on a critical turn * I would consider the Mechanic Officer, the Mechanics being maxed, and the War Dog to all be flexible points. All told they save you 9, 6 of which need to be MoW to get the third bonus. There's a lot you can do with that which will have more impact than them: Tankers or another Drakhun being the obvious ones. * If you fancied some slightly more radical changes, you could additionally drop the Drakhun, giving you 18 points. You could then also switch the Bombardiers to Demo Corps, saving two points, for a total of 20. That's enough for another full unit of Shocktroopers if you want to run MAXIMUM BEEFCAKE mode. * Kodiaks are a good choice in the jack department, as they have speed, pathfinder, some anti-swarm tech, and they just hit like trucks under her. If you're running Beast-09 then a Kodiak + Marauder just lets you get three freebies. If you don't care about the third freebie, then have at. As far as what other MoW I own, that list is pretty much everything except for one Kovnik. That said, fielding him would be useful. I felt starved for speed, and he would be handing out speed.
I've given it a try as written, and it would probably be nice to have separate packets of mechanics - they have a lot of trouble keeping up with the action. On the plus side, they healed literally 37 points(!) of damage over the course of the match, which I think is a new record.
I had overlooked (forgotten) the fact that I don't need the officer in order to repair Man-o-War models, which means the officer really is not particularly useful. He is durable, but as a SPD 4 anchor tied to the unit's ankles, he's bad. 2 min units would work better even NOT considering zone scoring issues.
I'm locked into the list for a league, but I think my adjustment for now should look like downgrading the mechanics to a single packet and adding the kovnik (with 1 stray point as a spare).
I'm not 100% convinced Beast-09 is the right choice for me, either. He's good at killing things, but the list is going in on having lots of boxes to chew through, and he's on the glass cannon side of things, which makes him a priority target. I do have a couple of Kodiaks I could swap into the list. Marauder + 2x Kodiak would free up three more points to open up an entire 4 point slot.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jan 10, 2019 21:04:35 GMT
37 boxes!? Blimey, that's like a full shocktrooper unit. Nice work!
What sort of adjustments will the league allow you to make? Or do you mean that you can't change the list for that, but are looking for changes for other fights?
The second Kovnik isn't strictly needed, as you only have two units and one of them doesn't need the speed boost anywhere near as much. But it's more useful than the excess mechanics! If you can get two min units from your models that's better, but leaves you two points down. You could use that to switch the War Dog for Sylys, or one of the Marauders for a Kodiak.
I hear you about Beast. He is a lot of points. Swapping Beast + Marauder for two Kodiaks frees up three points, so you could do that and the double min mechanics, and the Sylys switch, and still have enough for the Kovnik.
Beyond that, I guess it depends on how you expand your collection! I'm a big fan of the second unit of Shocktroopers, and they're the sort of thing that pops up a lot on ebay. And I'd recommend 1-2 Tankers.
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Post by tjhairball on Jan 12, 2019 17:01:57 GMT
Okay, take my advice here with a pinch of salt, as I don't have much experience with the Old Witch, but... How sold are you on Jaws of the Wolf? I'm thinking about it from a list pairing point of view, and given the crazy hitting power of the S3 list you probably don't need to worry too much about having top-end ARM cracking on OW. I'd lean towards having S3 as your main smashy list, and have OW look more into her excellent anti-infantry abilities in case you come across something that S3 can't deal with effectively. To that end, I think you should consider Winter Guard Kommand, assuming you have some Winter Guard to use! As it stands you've got 51 points of warjack in your list, which means you've got 42 non-WJ points... that's enough for two freebies in either theme. You wouldn't be able to take Behemoth or the Forge Seer, but you could still fit 4 jacks in there (as well as Scrapjack). I think it would work quite well, as the jacks can hit the half-way mark on T1 if needed, the WG can be her meatshields if she's threatened. It also represents an excellent drop into melee infantry lists (as the Feat and MoC messes with most of them, giving you an extra round of shooting), as a counterpoint to S3 which is excellent into gunlines due to durability and a cloud wall. But either way it's worth getting the Adjunct in there when he's out; free cloud, magic weapons, extra upkeep are all good for her. Well, probably my biggest driving factor for wanting to run some Jaws of the Wolf right now is that I really miss putting Behemoth on the table. All in all, as I knock the rust off, it would be nice to have a simple go-to list of each "type."
I have Old Witch, Zerkova, and Sorscha. (I don't own Old Witch #2 or Zerkova #2 yet; I'll probably pick up Zerkova #2 eventually, but Old Witch #2 is pretty expensive.)
So I'm thinking in terms of matching up casters and themes, and in that light, I think my obvious regular Winter Guard Kommand warcaster for a staple list is Sorscha2, just like my obvious Armored Corps warcaster is Sorscha3.
- Sorscha3 - Armored Corps
- Sorscha2 - Winter Guard Kommand
- Sorscha1 - Legion of Steel?
- Old Witch - Jaws of the Wolf?
- Zerkova1 - Wolves of Winter?
So I do want to make sure I have an Old Witch list to run that's one of those three themes - Wolves of Winter might be the real natural choice, given the upkeep benefit - and I do also want to make sure to have a Jaws of the Wolf list in there somewhere with one of those three warcasters and (if pragmatic) Behemoth. |
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Post by hocestbellum on Jan 12, 2019 17:52:24 GMT
Ah, okay. Well, if you're going to partition up that way then I'd say OW is probably the Jaws caster. Zerkova and Sorscha1 are very interchangeable on the Wolves/Legion front; Zerkova is great at delivering either thanks to the cloud walls, and Sorscha's mass concealment and mass freeze are useful for both too.
Can't really argue with S3 as an AC caster, but with S2 I would seriously consider running her our of theme. I ran this at the end of last year to good effect:
[Sorscha 2] Forward Kommander Sorscha [+27]
- Behemoth [25]
- Greylord Adjunct [4]
Koldun Lord [4]
Man-O-War Kovnik [4]
Man-O-War Strike Tanker [5]
Man-O-War Strike Tanker [5]
Kovnik Joe [4]
Goblin Tinker [2]
Greylord Ternion [7]
Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16]
- Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4]
Winter Guard Infantry (max) [10]
- Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [4]
- Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6]
Using the CID rules for the Ternion and the Koldun
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Post by tjhairball on Jan 16, 2019 19:06:27 GMT
Well, so far I'm 0-2 with the Sorscha3 list. (1) I keep forgetting she has a gun. (2) I'm still trying to figure out how to keep her forward enough to be useful without being so far forward that she gets clobbered. (3) 2x min mechs seems just plain 100% better than max + officer in every conceivable way. The only thing that goes missing is the fact that very sadly, the Battle Mechanik officer model is pretty nice-looking. It's painful that it's just really not worth fielding. (4) Shield guard seems essential if Sorscha isn't in the back line. She isn't super squishy but she does need some protection. So here's one thought on tuning the list up: conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0Tk_kTkTkT8fhF8pl5l59i8686l27Ml07QgdKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Armored Corps [Sorscha 3] Kommandant Sorscha Kratikoff [+28] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] - War Dog [3] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Man-O-War Drakhun [9] Man-O-War Kovnik [0(4)] Man-O-War Kovnik [4] Ogrun Bokur [5] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard [7] Man-O-War Bombardiers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Bombardier Officer [0(5)] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4] One interesting point is that in this version, I have 3 warrior models that can slam, plus the three Marauders. Pinball city. |
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Post by auraco on Jan 16, 2019 20:02:36 GMT
I've played Sorscha3 a lot by now and never had an issue keeping her alive. Using tactician when she is surrounded by iron fleshed shocktrooper allow her to get work done and still be safe behind them at the end of the turn. The games I've lost with her were either on clock or on scenario.
Models like the wardog, the Bokur, the mechaniks, and the forge seer seem counter productive for me, they stay back and don't do work so your opponent has more model on the table and thus can get more shot at your caster. Having the war dog, the bokur, the forge and the two units of mechaniks being low work model it's like you're playing 18 points behind in term of killing models, it's pretty much the definition of support bloat. I don't dislike the mechaniks with her, mostly because one more advance move is pretty good, but I only ever consider one unit, and it's only as filler if I don't have the points for more. With Sorscha3 I think you're better with offensive models than defensive models.
I notice you don't have any tankers in the list, is there a reason for that? They are easily the best and more point efficient models in armored corps, any work they do is less models for your opponent to try to kill you. You could easily cut the forge seer, war dog, bokur and some mechaniks to include a couple more tanker in the list.
Don't forget to use Sorscha3 offensively, out of our casters she tends to do a lot of work by herself, she can do it and stay safe thanks to tactician when compared to most of our other caster. Her gun with tactician and arcing fire is alway at least useful and she can do a surprising amount of work in melee, pow 16 auto freeze is no joke.
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