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Post by oncomingstorm on Jan 9, 2019 23:20:27 GMT
The real problem with ornery is that it is:
A) useless on warlocks, as your gameplan should typically not involve letting your warlock get hit (and if that is your plan, another transfer/a better defensive animus like spiny growth or elusive is almost always a better plan, given the weedy nature of most warlocks
and
B) At BEST, as good as buying another attack. Typically, because of the availability of in-activation buffs, it will actually be worse than buying an attack, particularly as your opponent has the chance to knock out an aspect before you get to make it. So the only situation where you want to cast it is when you've ended your activation with fury to spare and no further targets in your melee range, AND you don't plan to use the beast in question as a transfer target. I suppose you can also use it when you're planning to receive an alpha, but that never feels like a good plan to bank on.
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Post by onijet01 on Jan 10, 2019 7:53:10 GMT
The real problem with ornery is that it is: A) useless on warlocks, as your gameplan should typically not involve letting your warlock get hit (and if that is your plan, another transfer/a better defensive animus like spiny growth or elusive is almost always a better plan, given the weedy nature of most warlocks and B) At BEST, as good as buying another attack. Typically, because of the availability of in-activation buffs, it will actually be worse than buying an attack, particularly as your opponent has the chance to knock out an aspect before you get to make it. So the only situation where you want to cast it is when you've ended your activation with fury to spare and no further targets in your melee range, AND you don't plan to use the beast in question as a transfer target. I suppose you can also use it when you're planning to receive an alpha, but that never feels like a good plan to bank on. I disagree with these two assumtions. For example A. If a warlock has a Knockdown or Disruptive melee weapon the retalitory strike actually is better than a single transfer. In the case of knockdown the models activation just ends (great va butcher 3 like casters). And the latter stops fully fueled Warjacks (example: imperitous) from pasting your caster And in example B. In some circumstances you can get lucky on the attack and cripple the opponents spirit, cortex, or brain. And thats means a difrence in attrition. And point C. If you can not out threat your opponent it does bring a way to strike your opponent back if you can not stop their alpha strike. Summation it is animi built as a reactive tool good enough for models that have limites or stagnant threat ranges
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gordo
Junior Strategist
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Post by gordo on Jan 10, 2019 14:32:29 GMT
Like most defensive animi, or really most animii in general, it's primary usage is intentionally niche. In this case, you use it when you have nothing else to attack and you have the fury to spend. Usually the best you can hope for is it kills an infantry dude or tacks on a couple of extra damage. In SOME cases with some casters it works great: see Zaadesh2. In others, it works decently as a deterrent against low-mid armor: see Makeda2.
This is basically how they intentionally designed all but the most "faction defining" animii, as they stated in the beginning of mk3, because they didn't want to have to factor in all their various animii when calculating the points and balance of war beasts.
Is it better this way? YMMV. I think so.
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Post by copperflame on Jan 10, 2019 17:34:24 GMT
I understand that most animii should be niche to help stifle unforseen interactions that would cause balance issues. I also acknowledge that not every animii should be the most awesome thing ever - balance in all things, eh?
But Ornery for Legion (I don't have the knowledge for others) is not a great option. I wonder what casters WOULD want this in other factions. If a faction has a caster with some disruption (like knockdown) to prevent any further attacks - I could definitely see myself valuing it more than I do now.
For 'getting lucky and knocking out a system' - the luck part is directly tied to the melee stats of the jack/beast. Again, in legion, it is not high enough for me to even consider it. Other factions may have better options.
For countering the Alpha... this goes into defensive stats to be able to survive the alpha intact enough to swing (effectively). In Legion, I think the Neph Protector is sturdy enough to absorb a charge from a Large (barring dice spike) and it (often?) will get to swing back - but I know in a mirror match, I wouldn't fear the attack THAT much (because you can't boost it).
So... Ornery may be niche. Are there caster/beast combinations that make it really sing or is this a case where it is just not good enough?
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Jan 10, 2019 22:10:16 GMT
There are some casters who can use it in admittedly limited situations. Borka 2 has Crit Smite and Defiant Rage, so if you don't need Earth Blessing on him and you can still keep a couple transfers, it might actually be worthwhile.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
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Post by gordo on Jan 10, 2019 22:16:58 GMT
I understand that most animii should be niche to help stifle unforseen interactions that would cause balance issues. I also acknowledge that not every animii should be the most awesome thing ever - balance in all things, eh? But Ornery for Legion (I don't have the knowledge for others) is not a great option. I wonder what casters WOULD want this in other factions. If a faction has a caster with some disruption (like knockdown) to prevent any further attacks - I could definitely see myself valuing it more than I do now. For 'getting lucky and knocking out a system' - the luck part is directly tied to the melee stats of the jack/beast. Again, in legion, it is not high enough for me to even consider it. Other factions may have better options. For countering the Alpha... this goes into defensive stats to be able to survive the alpha intact enough to swing (effectively). In Legion, I think the Neph Protector is sturdy enough to absorb a charge from a Large (barring dice spike) and it (often?) will get to swing back - but I know in a mirror match, I wouldn't fear the attack THAT much (because you can't boost it). So... Ornery may be niche. Are there caster/beast combinations that make it really sing or is this a case where it is just not good enough? I mean, I agree with you in that Ornery is utter garbage on a Nephilim Protector, but we're really talking about a problem with the Protector, not the animus. There's a reason no one plays Saeryn...
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Jan 11, 2019 4:41:23 GMT
So if they just gave up on Ret Strike as an animus, or maybe they only kept it for the Brawler and Sentry, what might be better choices for these beasts?
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Post by dogganmguest on Jan 11, 2019 8:18:45 GMT
I think an animus that was basically Vayl's dark sentinel would suit the nephilim protector perfectly. Basically counter charge but with a regular advance instead - less distance, better chance to hit. No idea if it'd be broken on any casters, but the protector himself would not be tearing up the world. If it was too much on casters, it could require a beast as the target, or even light beast.
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Post by cainuslupus on Jan 11, 2019 10:58:37 GMT
I think an animus that was basically Vayl's dark sentinel would suit the nephilim protector perfectly. Basically counter charge but with a regular advance instead - less distance, better chance to hit. No idea if it'd be broken on any casters, but the protector himself would not be tearing up the world. If it was too much on casters, it could require a beast as the target, or even light beast. You can always limit it to protector, or Nephilims. The same way Wasps animi works. You can cast it 6", but only on beast pack. I believe animi like Spiny Growth could help Protector. Also Pow on weapon, it has halberd with blade of the size of trooper with P+S 12. It's not only bad gameplay wise but plainly stupid. I would say P+S 14/15. Also counterblast animi works like better version of defensive strike, so there is no need for new animi, maybe just change it's name (since it's counterintuitive).
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Post by copperflame on Jan 11, 2019 17:02:39 GMT
Agreed. I don't want to derail this conversation about the Neph Protector (unless we want to go there). My main question was around my lack of knowledge on other factions/interactions.
In what situations: Would you want a light warbeast to use Ornery? Would you want a caster to use Ornery?
It sounds like, in a general scope, Ornery is not impactful enough on most light warbeasts due to lower stats than heavy. Would a heavy have better use out of Ornery (does any heavy warbeast/jack have this and/or what is its perceived usefullness?)
Trust me, I can go really off the rails about how to help the Neph Protector - even if Ornery was better, unless it helped the Neph Protector protect better - I don't know if I wouldn't prefer something else (Safeguard or some other knockdown defense).
By a novice glance - Ornery should ward off some attacks (or be some sort of awesome attack before the model dies).
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gordo
Junior Strategist
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Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jan 11, 2019 19:23:25 GMT
Agreed. I don't want to derail this conversation about the Neph Protector (unless we want to go there). My main question was around my lack of knowledge on other factions/interactions. In what situations: Would you want a light warbeast to use Ornery? Would you want a caster to use Ornery? It sounds like, in a general scope, Ornery is not impactful enough on most light warbeasts due to lower stats than heavy. Would a heavy have better use out of Ornery (does any heavy warbeast/jack have this and/or what is its perceived usefullness?) Trust me, I can go really off the rails about how to help the Neph Protector - even if Ornery was better, unless it helped the Neph Protector protect better - I don't know if I wouldn't prefer something else (Safeguard or some other knockdown defense). By a novice glance - Ornery should ward off some attacks (or be some sort of awesome attack before the model dies). On a light warbeast, I'd want it be at least PS 12, have rng 2, and at least MAT 7. This way it can be reasonably be expected to hit and kill some infantry. If it were on a caster, he'd need to have decent survivability tech (good armor and boxes) and either a means of casting this for free (Harmonious Exaltation, Attuned Spirit, etc.) or added incentive to get hurt (Blood Spawn, Battle Driven, etc). He would also need to reasonably want to play without beasts that have a better animus to cast on themselves instead (which is where Thagrosh2 falls down, considering Counterblast, Countercharge, Excessive Healing, and Spiny Growth are all in faction and all usually better).
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Post by frumiousbandersnatch on Jan 12, 2019 2:15:41 GMT
It sounds like, in a general scope, Ornery is not impactful enough on most light warbeasts due to lower stats than heavy. Would a heavy have better use out of Ornery (does any heavy warbeast/jack have this and/or what is its perceived usefullness?) Ornery is an animus found primarily on heavy Warbeasts. The Riphotn Satyr, Dire Troll Brawler, and Titan Sentry all have it. I can't think of any others right now, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are out there. The only light I know of off the top of my head to have it is the Nephilim Protector. Retalitory Strike is a mediocre ability and usually just a fluff thing. Ornery is a trash animus and almost never worth casting. The only time Ornery might be worth using is if you have some gimmick on your beast that could allow it to stop an attacker like knocking it down (though many of these abilities have been limited to only function during activation/combat action to prevent synergies like these). Then it forces your opponent to tickle the beast with a sacrificial warrior model to clear the animus, clear the animus outright, or take the high risk of whatever piece they are sending in failing at it's job. Even then, the number of models that have access to some synergistic ability where they could reasonably make use of Retaliatory Strike is extremely low. Can't think of a reason to ever cast the animus in Circle, for example. Neither for the beast or on a warlock. They could probably just give every beast that has Ornery Retaliatory Strike as a native ability and it wouldn't break anything (so long as it wasn't replaced with some other busted animus). Alternatively, they could change the beasts that have it so that they all have some way to make it useful OR they could change Retaliatory Strike to be an actually useful ability in general. Don't think any of these are going to happen, though. None of the beasts mentioned are so utterly terrible that they are screaming for a buff. But, correct if I'm wrong, none of them are terribly common or exciting choices either.
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Post by greytemplar on Jan 12, 2019 5:54:59 GMT
The Brawler is fine with a wimpy animus. He has two 2" pow17 melee weapons. 2" melee alone makes him pretty dope for Trolls. Sure, he's fairly lackluster. But he's only 16 points and has 2" melee, and trolls have a LOT of beast buffs.
If he had Rage or a similarly powerful Animus he'd probably have to be 18-19 points.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Jan 12, 2019 9:26:12 GMT
The Brawler is niche-playable but being at 16 points is actually really awkward for him. It's very hard to choose him over a second Earthborn or Mauler and he's not going to see play outside of either a beast brick with Doomy 3 or Ragnor or a list that specifically wants the reach, like the Madraks in Band of Heroes with a Chronicler. Like I said- very niche. That's kind of a shame because the model itself is fantastic, but our warbeasts, in general, are facing harsh competition for space.
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Post by tiberius on Jan 14, 2019 11:39:17 GMT
The brawler is a rock star in my games because I face a lot of heavy's with shields. The two inch reach and being able to ignore 2 armor is very beneficial. In my meta, he is the natural predator.
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