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Post by auraco on Jan 8, 2019 18:09:24 GMT
In WGK consider boundless charge for stuff other than jacks. Boundless charge on the gun carriage is very good, also consider the caster in question, Winterguard Kommand is already one of the best theme for Butcher3 and he benefits a lot more from Sorscha0 than from Malakov1. She won't be for every winterguard kommand list, but she will clearly have a place in a couple of list where adding a boundless charge can allow the rest of the list to shine.
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Post by sand20go on Jan 8, 2019 18:44:02 GMT
I am starting to really think that a good (great?) package with her could well be WGIK with Strakov2. The key question is what would be your win strategy - which I THINK I see but welcome/encourage more spitballing. The entire package probably wants the adjunct as well. A) Quicken and Fog stack. So now your WGI are DEF 16 and likely tough/no knockdown. You SHOULD be able to get a bunch to where they need to be and it will be a tarpit worthy of the name. B) Quicken also stacks with BC. Here again we have a possible synergy (see below). C) Not sure about IR - But I have an idea...... OK. So something like conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0fhDkTkTlO8t8M8I7S7T7W7-7-7Y7W7Y7WKhador Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] Winter Guard Kommand !!! Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff must have a battlegroup. !!! This army contains a CID entry. [Strakhov 2] Assault Kommander Strakhov [+22] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [4] Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich [4] Lady Aiyana & Master Holt [8] - Koldun Kapitan Valachev [4] Winter Guard Infantry (max) [10] - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [0(4)] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] Winter Guard Mortar Crew [0(5)] Winter Guard Mortar Crew [0(5)] Winter Guard Rifle Corps (max) [13] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] Winter Guard Rifle Corps (max) [13] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] Turn 1 (I don't have time to think top or bottom) IR goes on Beast (so ARM 22 to start). Quicken on the WGI so either a 16 inch run or an 8 inch move and repo 3. 2 Return Fires on Rockets that might be outside the FOG/Joe/Sorscha bubble. You can also give Beast quicken for a 12 inch run (see below) to get into good shield guard range (but we want to be sure to keep him in control (see below) Turn 2 we can do very silly things. One of which is.. Last stand/BC goes on Beast who will MURDERATE more than 18 points with that spell on him from 11 inches away. Or alternatively we can QUicken and BC a Maurader for a slam/knock down on caster who can then eat 9 rockets to face. Or a few big WG death star CRAs. There is also the humerous fun of last stand on WGI + Bear strength. No recycling with Alexia (points are not there). Feat helps you deliver more WGI up the field - most because Joe can give tough to one unit and your bubble extends it. Now the interesting question (Loud Chris?) is whether it is or isn't as good as Irusk2 Stalingrad with her. Last stand vs. Battle Lust. Quicken vs. Energize; 10 inch tough bubble always on versus only as feat. Key differences would be last stand on the jacks, Invol. Resolve, the Corner case of Return fire (but which could be pretty darn good on rockets). -3 speed on Irusk2's feat vs. the bigger Tough bubble). Here is a funny interaction with her in WGK when she brings Beast (especially if you have a caster like Butcher 1 or Strakov that has a pow buff). Joe has SacPawn WG. She is a WG. So if they shoot at him he can pawn it off to her....which Beast can SG away and then get the HyperAggressive move. Of course in theme Strakov2 would have that as well to a WG. Needs table time and thinking but it would see a LARGE amount of board space could be "no shooting" zone unless you want a Beast in your face. |
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jan 8, 2019 20:03:42 GMT
Khador Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] Winter Guard Kommand !!! Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff must have a battlegroup. !!! This army contains a CID entry. [Strakhov 2] Assault Kommander Strakhov [+22] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [4] Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich [4] Lady Aiyana & Master Holt [8] - Koldun Kapitan Valachev [4] Winter Guard Infantry (max) [10] - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [0(4)] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] Winter Guard Mortar Crew [0(5)] Winter Guard Mortar Crew [0(5)] Winter Guard Rifle Corps (max) [13] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] Winter Guard Rifle Corps (max) [13] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] Sorscha does not have a jack on her in this list. I assume you meant to add Beast but forgot? As far as I can tell the points add up to 74 WITHOUT Beast, so... you might have to re-think the list. |
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Post by hocestbellum on Jan 8, 2019 20:12:06 GMT
Your list is missing a fairly critical detail when it comes to Beast-09 shenanigans: it doesn't contain Beast-09!  But even if it did, you should be hunted down by the Prikaz for even suggesting that it should have Last Stand on it. With full focus and a free charge it will utterly total an Ironclad (82% chance to kill), but won't be able to smash two. With all that and Last Stand, it will be able to utterly crush one ironclad (97%), and has a small chance of being able to manage two (about 20%). It will already obliterate any infantry it reaches. Even if you do manage to get 18 points worth of value out of it, you then hand a huge chunk of value back to your opponent. A Berserker, on the other hand, with full focus and a free charge, has a paltry 5% chance to smash an Ironclad. Which becomes 92.2% with Last Stand. It will also obliterate any infantry it can reach short of Shield Walled shocktroopers. And it only costs 8 points, and might have exploded anyway. Stick two on Sorscha and christen it the Winter Guard Missile Battery. You don't even particularly need Sorscha: even if you have to pay for the charge like a pleb, it's still 67% chance on the Ironclad. |
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Post by sand20go on Jan 8, 2019 20:14:00 GMT
Khador Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] Winter Guard Kommand !!! Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff must have a battlegroup. !!! This army contains a CID entry. [Strakhov 2] Assault Kommander Strakhov [+22] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [4] Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich [4] Lady Aiyana & Master Holt [8] - Koldun Kapitan Valachev [4] Winter Guard Infantry (max) [10] - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [0(4)] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] Winter Guard Mortar Crew [0(5)] Winter Guard Mortar Crew [0(5)] Winter Guard Rifle Corps (max) [13] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] Winter Guard Rifle Corps (max) [13] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] Sorscha does not have a jack on her in this list. I assume you meant to add Beast but forgot? As far as I can tell the points add up to 74 WITHOUT Beast, so... you might have to re-think the list. THANKS!! It seems to be a bug in conflict chamber that screws up adding Beast. So I did it with Grolar as a substitute. Comes close to working out (lose a mortar, WGI becomes min, no A&H+V) conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0fhDkTkTlOdZ8t7R7T7V7-7Y7W7Y7WKhador Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] Winter Guard Kommand !!! This army contains a CID entry. [Strakhov 2] Assault Kommander Strakhov [+22] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [4] - Grolar [18] Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich [4] Winter Guard Infantry (min) [6] - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [0(4)] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (2) [4] Winter Guard Mortar Crew [0(5)] Winter Guard Rifle Corps (max) [13] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] Winter Guard Rifle Corps (max) [13] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] |
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Post by sand20go on Jan 8, 2019 20:22:24 GMT
Your list is missing a fairly critical detail when it comes to Beast-09 shenanigans: it doesn't contain Beast-09! But even if it did, you should be hunted down by the Prikaz for even suggesting that it should have Last Stand on it. With full focus and a free charge it will utterly total an Ironclad (82% chance to kill), but won't be able to smash two. With all that and Last Stand, it will be able to utterly crush one ironclad (97%), and has a small chance of being able to manage two (about 20%). It will already obliterate any infantry it reaches. Even if you do manage to get 18 points worth of value out of it, you then hand a huge chunk of value back to your opponent. A Berserker, on the other hand, with full focus and a free charge, has a paltry 5% chance to smash an Ironclad. Which becomes 92.2% with Last Stand. It will also obliterate any infantry it can reach short of Shield Walled shocktroopers. And it only costs 8 points, and might have exploded anyway. Stick two on Sorscha and christen it the Winter Guard Missile Battery. You don't even particularly need Sorscha: even if you have to pay for the charge like a pleb, it's still 67% chance on the Ironclad. True. See above cause of conflict glitch and reworked.
But here is the thing - Beast 09 is in there MOSTLY for the assassination and the joy of the sac pawn jank.
And while the Iron Clad is a fun comparison I think a more meaningful one (or at least in my meta it is) would be Beast-09 threatening a vulcan under Locke's feat....or a SG under Zaal2's feat....or Tibers under xerxis1's. Yes. 18 points is an AWFULLY expensive last stand target. But even with POW 14 WM that is hard for the Zerker to chew all the way through (dice -9 against the B2B Tibers under X1's feat.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jan 8, 2019 20:49:23 GMT
Haha, 11" large base with no movement shenanigans is not an assassination threat! That's the high end of normal; the game is full of infantry that at least equal that.
And don't sell the Berserker short! It's P16. But yes, it wouldn't be much use against those mental examples. But then, neither is Beast-09
Beast-09 is no threat to a Vulcan under Locke's feat. If it has just one token you have a 14% chance of pulling that off. It is not much threat to Zaal's SG on feat turn; 40% chance for that. The Marauders have a better chance in both cases.
EDIT: Sorry, came across as a bit dismissive there. I'm not trying to say you shouldn't take Beast, just that the circumstances in which you would do well casting Last Stand on him compared to a Marauder are unbelievably rare.
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Post by sand20go on Jan 8, 2019 21:20:38 GMT
Haha, 11" large base with no movement shenanigans is not an assassination threat! That's the high end of normal; the game is full of infantry that at least equal that. And don't sell the Berserker short! It's P16. But yes, it wouldn't be much use against those mental examples. But then, neither is Beast-09 Beast-09 is no threat to a Vulcan under Locke's feat. If it has just one token you have a 14% chance of pulling that off. It is not much threat to Zaal's SG on feat turn; 40% chance for that. The Marauders have a better chance in both cases. It does have movement shennigans. BC+Quicken+Charge=13 inch threat. Quicken+Shield guard+Hyper plus the above equals a hypothetical maximum of 19 inches. As noted, you can actually start to do fun and bizzaro things if they dare to shoot at Joe or Sorscha.
But yes. As you note, Buy or boost suggests that while Beast would do a LOT to those targets even under last stand it doesn't get the job done. Maurader also comes up short. I guess need A&H to kill as well ;-(
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Post by tjhairball on Jan 9, 2019 5:28:39 GMT
That's kind of what happens whenever I theorymachine lists and try to fit her in. If I'm putting her in a list with a good jack caster it feels like a high price to have a jack that's not getting battlegroup benefits (and probably not getting much focus most of the time if she's busy casting BC). In non-jack caster lists I just keep thinking "isn't Andy1 better?". I guess she's fine with a Rager or Destroyer since they can work (mostly) fine with only power-up focus and no buffs, if they have a place in your list anyway. I guess she could be good with Andy 2: he likes tough models for the feat but they don't need to be in his battlegroup so there's not so much cost in putting a good jack on her, BC brings his jacks to actual dangerous threat range and he likes the free charge, he gives out Prowl which plays nice with her Fog, plus she might be a decent target for battle plans too. Yeah, this sort of consideration is what's pushing me towards interesting and expensive choices.
Notably, Beast-09, Behemoth, and Conquest.
I sort of like the idea of putting Conquest in an Old Witch list (always have). Old Witch can't help with cracking armor, Conquest doesn't need help. Covering Fire + Murder of Crows quite a bit of zone denial.
However, Conquest doesn't get much out of Old Witch's battlegroup. Field Marshal: Apparition does nothing to extend Connie's threat range, and Old Witch has a lot of things she likes to do with her focus.
Of course, losing Conquest because Sorscha0 is squishy makes that a high-risk ploy... |
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jan 9, 2019 7:48:38 GMT
I sort of like the idea of putting Conquest in an Old Witch list (always have). Old Witch can't help with cracking armor, Conquest doesn't need help. Covering Fire + Murder of Crows quite a bit of zone denial. However, Conquest doesn't get much out of Old Witch's battlegroup. Field Marshal: Apparition does nothing to extend Connie's threat range, and Old Witch has a lot of things she likes to do with her focus.
Of course, losing Conquest because Sorscha0 is squishy makes that a high-risk ploy... I think Andy1 is less squishy than Sorscha0... |
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Jan 10, 2019 7:20:20 GMT
Just posted up a battle report with Sorscha1 in an Old Witch1 list. In the battle reports section.
Cheers,
Dave
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