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Post by Big Fat Troll on Jan 8, 2019 11:17:20 GMT
sand20go - don't forget that: - Whining does appear to work, at least in certain cases. Which in turn incentivizes more whining. Both Skorne CIDs were masterclasses in Female Doging loudly (without table time) and playing with the intention of proving a point (herp derp I let my SG get charged by a unit of champions and it died, needs moar buffs plz). Particularly when the model in question is new and expensive, there seems to be a strong bias to err on the side of releasing a broken model, rather than risk creating something that doesn't sell. Maybe the lack of sales of the Hooch Hauler was a wakeup call, that these BAHI models needed to be aggressively overtuned to see the kinds of sales they want to see. - PP is selectively deaf when it comes to evaluating and implementing suggestions, especially late in the CID. Case in point: early in the Tharn CID, I suggested that the corpse benefit be changed to give every model with heart eater a corpse. I also suggested that Tharn Ravagers should probably get a points increase if that happened. PP implemented one element of the suggested changes, but not the other. Same goes for the LoTF - most people wanted him to get blood reaper, but most of the circle players I know also expected him to lose some of the kit he'd picked up before that (and said as much). Again, PP went with the late-game kitchen sink approach, rather than iterating on a concept (and resetting when substantial changes are made). This, in turn, creates the potential for even good feedback to produce models which are above the curve. I'd rather have CID than be stuck in the shithole that was early Mk3 balance (honestly, I probably would be gone by this point, as would my meta), but they really should up their game in terms of evaluating feedback. The game is turning in BAHImachine, and it's not a good look for the game. I was going to say these things but decided not to because I was too tempted to be too harsh about it. Nonetheless, you're totally right, especially on the Supreme Guardian. Sure, the Hooch Hauler probably is a bit weak after about two years of power creep and not a great comparison, but the SG really is much stronger at 2 points less. People who think that thing is just fine must be snorting Adderal. You've also touched upon why I honestly don't find batreps to be very useful in CID, and if anything, there is too much emphasis on them. People really do crap like that. They want to prove that their stuff is not overpowered and that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's not even always conscious or deliberate, and sometimes we overlook the obvious. Back in the Northkin CID, I badly underestimated the Battle Bears because I insisted on always ambushing with them and as such did not see them interact much with the Northkin Elder. And that is one of the bigger worries that I have- that they are deliberately making the new stuff overpowered just so it will sell better. I don't think this is even debatable, though the extent to which they're doing that and how cynical they are about it might be.
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Post by cgdeth on Jan 8, 2019 11:37:50 GMT
BAHImachine, and it's not a good look for the game. BAHI? Sorry I don't recognize the term...
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jan 8, 2019 11:54:37 GMT
BAHImachine, and it's not a good look for the game. BAHI? Sorry I don't recognize the term... Black Anchor Heavy Industries, PP releases almost all new huge based models through this direct-order service. It's very prohibitive if you're anywhere but the US because of taxes and customs. Although it must be said that most LGS seem to be able to get them as well, just after the pre-release and with the usual order delay.
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Post by Charistoph on Jan 8, 2019 14:07:12 GMT
That's more than Forgeworld does. LGS in the States can order Forgeworld for you, but they have to order an insane amount of product for them to break even on the order, as they don't get a discount for resale like the Citadel line of product.
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Post by jisidro on Jan 8, 2019 14:22:40 GMT
BAHImachine, and it's not a good look for the game. BAHI? Sorry I don't recognize the term... Yes, BAHI is a bad idea anywhere not in the USA. Yes, I think coversions are encouraged by shipping+taxes that easily double a model's price. No, I don't BAHImachine is a thing. Last 5 CID: RET CID/Skorne: 1 BAHI I think will see a lot of play Tharn: Is it BAHI? Does it matter? Exalted: Supreme Table time Cornucopia: No BAHI Steelhead: No BAHI 50% - %50%? I can't speak for the future but so far, so good. I encourage people to convert until PP is encouraged to get a solution like they did for the rest of the line and the mini-crates and hopefully their upcoming kickstarter.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jan 8, 2019 15:26:20 GMT
I encourage people to convert until PP is encouraged to get a solution like they did for the rest of the line and the mini-crates and hopefully their upcoming kickstarter. The mini-crates are all rather cheap items and can be "slipped through customs" (quotation marks because they don't necessarily do something illegal). BAHI items are all way too expensive to be exempt from taxes.
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Post by sand20go on Jan 8, 2019 17:20:25 GMT
BAHI? Sorry I don't recognize the term... Yes, BAHI is a bad idea anywhere not in the USA. Yes, I think coversions are encouraged by shipping+taxes that easily double a model's price. No, I don't BAHImachine is a thing. Last 5 CID: RET CID/Skorne: 1 BAHI I think will see a lot of play Tharn: Is it BAHI? Does it matter? Exalted: Supreme Table time Cornucopia: No BAHI Steelhead: No BAHI 50% - %50%? I can't speak for the future but so far, so good. I encourage people to convert until PP is encouraged to get a solution like they did for the rest of the line and the mini-crates and hopefully their upcoming kickstarter.
Retribution - Dawnguard Trident is VERY good. 3 boosted POw 13s (assuming average to decent) rolls is great - especially on BE model with Repo and the current SR package that has some scenarios with square zones way wide. It is a very good assassination piece as well with the ability to slam. It also can deliver assassination pieces like Imperatus with the 2 inch place mechanic. Not sure it will be extremely derp turtle level common but I think you will see it early and often in a lot of retribution lists that can leverage shooting/place effect.
Circle's new tree - rules are not yet released but it should solve some problems with the druid's theme. TBD but what was in CID was very good.
And then as you note, SG.
But not just the BAHI models - increasingly huge bases are a thing - up to the point of encouraging folks to take a serious look at models with siege weapons to re-warp the meta back to balance.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 8, 2019 17:20:56 GMT
I encourage people to convert until PP is encouraged to get a solution like they did for the rest of the line and the mini-crates and hopefully their upcoming kickstarter. The mini-crates are all rather cheap items and can be "slipped through customs" (quotation marks because they don't necessarily do something illegal). BAHI items are all way too expensive to be exempt from taxes. Not all the minicrate items are made in the US. I know that Cerberus in the UK makes them for the UK and Europe
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Post by jisidro on Jan 8, 2019 17:24:30 GMT
I encourage people to convert until PP is encouraged to get a solution like they did for the rest of the line and the mini-crates and hopefully their upcoming kickstarter. The mini-crates are all rather cheap items and can be "slipped through customs" (quotation marks because they don't necessarily do something illegal). BAHI items are all way too expensive to be exempt from taxes. I'm in europe and my mini-crate stuff comes from the UK not the US. Until brexit hits there is no chance to pay imports taxes on that. For european custumers this is all that is needed, a hub in europe.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jan 8, 2019 18:53:47 GMT
I think that while PP has obviously got a profit motive, I don't think it's actually broken anything other than huge bases. That, plus the high-cost/high investment nature of BAHI models, leads me to believe that there is an overt drive to ensure that BAHI models are models that players will purchase, despite the high cost/costs of importation, because they are extremely strong (or just necessary to be competitive).
To me, there were likely two components to this decision - first, you had the BE CID, which proved to PP that players were in fact willing to drop 200 bucks on double turtles/storm striders/etc, if they were sufficiently pushed to make the purchase worthwhile. Then, you saw what were likely less than satisfactory sales of things like the Hooch Hauler (I've seen ONE HH on the table, and most of the Troll players I know have said that it's because while the model is strong, it's not SO strong that you can't get by without it, and...it's expensive.) So essentially, you end up in a scenario where huge bases need to be pushed to sell in large numbers for the prices PP wants to charge, AND where players will demonstrably pay those prices to double up on over-the-top huge base models (every Skorne player in my meta, including those that just jumped on the skorne bandwagon post-CID, have 2 supreme guardians despite the fact that - as they're all Canadians - they're running at 130+ a pop.)
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Post by jisidro on Jan 8, 2019 19:11:39 GMT
There is a balance between making sure new things hit the table and making sure only good things hit tbe table.
I have a problem with BEs in general. They now seem to compete with buffed, fully loaded heavy warbeasts/Warjacks but demanding nothing in return... But so far nothing has broken the game.
So far, I'm OK.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jan 8, 2019 20:16:06 GMT
And that is one of the bigger worries that I have- that they are deliberately making the new stuff overpowered just so it will sell better. I don't think this is even debatable, though the extent to which they're doing that and how cynical they are about it might be. Remember that Mk2 had a notorious dry spell in which new stuff was just "meh". In Khador's case we had only 1 game changing caster released in all of Mk2 (Butcher_3), and that was around 2013. Literally no Unit, Solo, or Jack that wasn't already in the Forces Of book was the new "must have". The same could be said for a lot of other factions, which is why by the end people were tired of "The Stale Meta" (funny how now people's heads are spinning due to "too many updates!"). PPs business model, and their ability to keep the lights on, hinges on developing and selling the "new stuff". With this in mind, what I'm going to say next may be unpopular but I think it's valid: Power Creep is okay, but regular Rotation of the Old to make room for the New must be implemented. This works for literally every Roleplaying Game, Collectible Card Game, and the grand daddy of miniature games. Why wouldn't it work for WM/H?
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Post by michael on Jan 8, 2019 20:56:32 GMT
Fact check: Butcher3 dropped at GenCon 2013. So there.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Jan 8, 2019 21:08:07 GMT
There is a balance between making sure new things hit the table and making sure only good things hit tbe table. I have a problem with BEs in general. They now seem to compete with buffed, fully loaded heavy warbeasts/Warjacks but demanding nothing in return... But so far nothing has broken the game. So far, I'm OK. It is a fair question as to how well the inherent limitations of huge bases and the specific predators of them keep them in check when a battle engine is usually going to be straight up more powerful than a jack or especially a beast of the same cost, and they count toward freebies. But when entire themes see basically no play without their respective BE, that balance does seem a bit off. So... Marauder spam makes a comeback?
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Post by michael on Jan 8, 2019 21:22:01 GMT
There is a balance between making sure new things hit the table and making sure only good things hit tbe table. I have a problem with BEs in general. They now seem to compete with buffed, fully loaded heavy warbeasts/Warjacks but demanding nothing in return... But so far nothing has broken the game. So far, I'm OK. It is a fair question as to how well the inherent limitations of huge bases and the specific predators of them keep them in check when a battle engine is usually going to be straight up more powerful than a jack or especially a beast of the same cost, and they count toward freebies. But when entire themes see basically no play without their respective BE, that balance does seem a bit off. So... Marauder spam makes a comeback? Considering that Marauder Spam never existed... Sure why not?
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