shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Jan 3, 2019 20:29:54 GMT
ok, so I don't like them. If they're your friends, great. IDGAF. I don't think its a stretch to say that I am alone in my take on either one of them. (spoiler alert. I'm not) now, you can't say there is no such thing as an inside track. that's bullshit (kind of like a 90% conversion rate). I know for a fact there are many people in the community that get updates, news, and insights from people who work at PP. And as far as holding a grudge, I have a lot of stuff, like everyone else here does. I don't like it when two people almost singlehandedly destroy a game I love. Sure, it's their creation to destroy I guess (though let's not discount McVeys and DC, as well as the others who are no longer at pp who helped create it) but I sure as hell don't have to like it and I certainly don't like their public personas. Even pushing all of that aside, Even if they were super charismatic people and soles didn't automatically piss people off just be being within 15' of a keyboard (I mean, he is the PP equivalent of "don't you guys have phones") I'm not sure who else to lay this trainwreck of MKIII at? Who else should be held accountable for the massive and multiple failures of MKIII. You're saying that me, stating they are responsible for the trainwreck of MKIII (which is still not complete at this point) am out of touch with reality by holding the CEO and Lead product designer responsible for a shitty product launch. that's not out of touch with reality. that's holding leadership accountable for the quality of their work. Welp... that’s enough of “off the deep end” for me. Later! Dude, you're the one who thinks holding the lead designer (the person who leads the development team, for clarity) and the head of the game (the person to whom the responsibility falls for the game) equally responsible for their product is bad, as being off the deep end. that's not off the deep end. that's how the world works. I figured being the best salesperson in the world you would know a bit more about accountability in a business hierarchy. In a nutshell you believe WMH was built despite the leaders in charge of the project? That's hard to believe. I'm 100% not saying leadership are the only ones that deserve credit but they usually deserve some credit. At the very least they let the right guys do the work. I agree. I have never once failed to give them credit for the generation of the game, the factions, the lore (which is almost B+ material even despite WotDF and the Haley 3 garbage) and the core mechanics of the game. The game is freaking great and I've never once said it isn't. I said that there were a lot more people who were instrumental in creating the core design, and absent of the original design, MKIII was a train wreck and a terrible game. If it released on its own without an entire community of MK2 players behind it, i dont think it would have survived. They deserve credit for their contributions and creating the original design. Again, I've never said otherwise. They were also at the helm when MKIII launched, and despite what people think, MKIII was a very poor product launch and overall a poor product. So poor that 3 years later we are still rebuilding it with CID. Shiver you need to calm down and think logically. PP rushed mkiii yes but it was to appease players who for a minimum of 5 years kept asking for mkiii. Thats no diffrent in practice that all of AAA gaming studios rushing buggy games to market to appease players who want the next yearly instalment. Blame for the mkiii fiasco lies just as much with players demands as it does developers lack of forsight. (Ruling fiasco). You also may dislike Sole but youve offered no reason why outside of "just dont like him" so i will assume he beat you at your first meeting (whether it was a duel of whits, or in a game of warmahordes) and the damage to your ego left a deep scar. Seriously if you do not like mkiii you can always retire until mk4 comes out in 6 years. No. Consumers of a product are not to be blamed for the poor shape of a products release. That is one of the most idiotic things I have ever read. Gaming titles are not given a free pass, and the gamers aren't to blame for the release of a poor product. Bethesda and EA both are getting the shit kicked out of them. Activision and Blizzard are REALLY feeling some pain. No, if you release a shit product, you are going to get shit results. MKIII and the number of growing vs hurting metas or died out metas I think tells that story. if PP were concerned about the shape of the game, they could have pushed the game back into open field test. yes, it would have been a shit storm, but no worse than it is now. I could have gone into open beta, it would have gone over way better than the "working as intended" ideology that we got at the launch. Speaking of which, that's why I dislike soles so much. I love how you have crafted some narrative where soles beats me at something and leaves a scar on my ego to which I will never recover. Its almost like he etched his name on my heart so i would never forget. No. Not at all. IDGAF about that dude beyond his impact to the game. His interaction with the community and his very fuzzy logic on the forums were terrible and did nothing but hurt PP and their recovery efforts after the events of the MKIII launch and the time period of the insider spoilers leading up to it. He was a dick to the community (though never me directly) and was shown to be wrong multiple times by many different members of the community and refused to back down, cause it was "his vision". Funny, CID ended up reverting a lot of that shit back to not "his vision". I've never interacted with the useless Firetruckstick beyond the old PP forums. Now that Pagani is gone, i have little doubt it will take just a small amount of time and he will be back up to his old douchebag ways. If he isnt and he learned from those experiences, ill drop my beef and itll be done. until i see that, nope. About that part you put in bold... little bird told me that they are doing this. This seems very high risk, but if it happens, i would be very interested to see the end results. If its a good game, ill buy it and play it.
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Post by sand20go on Jan 3, 2019 20:54:15 GMT
I dont get the whole mk3 is a shambling mess of a ruin... Even at launch the game was more balanced than mk2 ever was... sure there were some outliers but there are always things that aren't perfect: for each una2 or karchev spam I can show you Haley1,2 and Denny 1, 2 or Saeryn. For every ghost fleet i can give you Machinations of Shadows or EE or Body and Soul...PP could have tested the game for 5 years and still they would have missed something. People may or may not agree with the direction that the designers have for the game (themes) but are always free to ply without them...or even play mk2 if it suits them. just don't say things that arent real... it says more about people ghan it does about PP.
I think a problem in MK3 launch was that there were a few factions (notably Skorne and I understand legion as well) where it felt like was a big push to "get it out" and there had not been enough tuning - with some serious head scratching. Been too long (and I don't care about it enough) but were not Paingivers, for example, strangely undertuned and worthless after having been (and once again) an iconic part of Skorne's plans.
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Post by scarecrow on Jan 3, 2019 21:02:28 GMT
Change is hard, I get that. The adjustment to MK3 after playing MK2 for so long was difficult. There are still minor rules that I get wrong because I'm used to how they previously worked. That said, we are now past the launch of MK3, and we are also well past the introduction of theme forces and the CID.
I think it's safe to say that we are playing the game within a relatively stable system. Outliers continue to be fine tuned as we move along, but the largest examples have already been adjusted. There are now infernal rulings for the vast majority of any odd rule interactions, and I think every faction has competitive options as well as a good identity/core characteristics.
We all understand the past problems, but there's no point in continuing to go over them. They've been resolved, let's move past it. The game is not only well balanced now, it's still just as fun to play.
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Post by slaughtersun on Jan 3, 2019 21:42:19 GMT
I dont get the whole mk3 is a shambling mess of a ruin... Even at launch the game was more balanced than mk2 ever was... sure there were some outliers but there are always things that aren't perfect: for each una2 or karchev spam I can show you Haley1,2 and Denny 1, 2 or Saeryn. For every ghost fleet i can give you Machinations of Shadows or EE or Body and Soul...PP could have tested the game for 5 years and still they would have missed something. People may or may not agree with the direction that the designers have for the game (themes) but are always free to ply without them...or even play mk2 if it suits them. just don't say things that arent real... it says more about people ghan it does about PP.
I think a problem in MK3 launch was that there were a few factions (notably Skorne and I understand legion as well) where it felt like was a big push to "get it out" and there had not been enough tuning - with some serious head scratching. Been too long (and I don't care about it enough) but were not Paingivers, for example, strangely undertuned and worthless after having been (and once again) an iconic part of Skorne's plans.
As a Legion player the faction changed a lot with the transition. This was a consequence of changes to game rules (eyeless sight and forests for example). This isnt the same as saying it sucked... I needed to adjust and I and many other players did just that. The same for Skorne and every Hordes player in general as focus was brought in line with Fury. Things werent as bad as the player outcry...and when players cry tjings usually scale...oh...cryx cant handle gunlines - here's carapace... oh menoth sucks...here's the judicator 2.0. If anything PPs reply to the community has caused at least as many issues than just letting them be ignored.
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Post by Bomma on Jan 3, 2019 22:47:01 GMT
Change is hard, I get that. The adjustment to MK3 after playing MK2 for so long was difficult. There are still minor rules that I get wrong because I'm used to how they previously worked. That said, we are now past the launch of MK3, and we are also well past the introduction of theme forces and the CID. I think it's safe to say that we are playing the game within a relatively stable system. Outliers continue to be fine tuned as we move along, but the largest examples have already been adjusted. There are now infernal rulings for the vast majority of any odd rule interactions, and I think every faction has competitive options as well as a good identity/core characteristics. We all understand the past problems, but there's no point in continuing to go over them. They've been resolved, let's move past it. The game is not only well balanced now, it's still just as fun to play.This post sums it up pretty well. Move past it gentlemen (gentlepeople?), play the game for where it is at now or move onto another game/system and let us enjoy what it has become. We have 3/4/5/6? Of these threads now and it is honestly getting boring reading the same rhetoric on these topics. Try putting your energy into growing the game or saying positive things about it..? 2019 looks exciting IMO and I can't wait for Infernals to come along. B.
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Post by sgregorbmmd on Jan 4, 2019 2:08:37 GMT
Maybe we need a DOOOOOM!!! sub forum...
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Post by josephkerr on Jan 4, 2019 2:23:15 GMT
Maybe we need a DOOOOOM!!! sub forum... Call it “Theory and List Building.”
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on Jan 4, 2019 2:40:12 GMT
Try putting your energy into growing the game or saying positive things about it..? Good idea, but I guess the frustration comes exactly from doing that. People who are happy with things are often doing nothing.
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Jan 4, 2019 4:32:27 GMT
Change is hard, I get that. The adjustment to MK3 after playing MK2 for so long was difficult. There are still minor rules that I get wrong because I'm used to how they previously worked. That said, we are now past the launch of MK3, and we are also well past the introduction of theme forces and the CID. I think it's safe to say that we are playing the game within a relatively stable system. Outliers continue to be fine tuned as we move along, but the largest examples have already been adjusted. There are now infernal rulings for the vast majority of any odd rule interactions, and I think every faction has competitive options as well as a good identity/core characteristics. We all understand the past problems, but there's no point in continuing to go over them. They've been resolved, let's move past it. The game is not only well balanced now, it's still just as fun to play.This post sums it up pretty well. Move past it gentlemen (gentlepeople?), play the game for where it is at now or move onto another game/system and let us enjoy what it has become. We have 3/4/5/6? Of these threads now and it is honestly getting boring reading the same rhetoric on these topics. Try putting your energy into growing the game or saying positive things about it..? 2019 looks exciting IMO and I can't wait for Infernals to come along. B. said it before, I'll say it again. people don't get pissed about something they don't care about. if you don't care, why would you get pissed? So when you say some blanket statement like "Try putting your energy into growing the game or saying positive things about it" I would offer to you that many, and I mean MANY of us, have in fact been up against the "rebuilding a meta" wall and have to deal with these objections all the time. So while it's nice to have players to play against, I'm trying to build those, and dealing with the negativity and BS that PP has done to themselves is a common occurrence. So for you, it may be "get over it bruh" but for me its "ok, i understand, but lets talk about that and see if we can look at how the game has changed recently and I think you might be surprised at how good it really has gotten" and then have a 2 hour conversation over it where it eventually ends up with them checking out the recent state of the game and are like appalled by CID and what its become.
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Post by onijet01 on Jan 4, 2019 6:07:04 GMT
No offense intended Shiver. (Sorry also as to me your posts read in a negetive contextual tone. This may be my fault as just the voice i hear when i read your posts. If so i humbly apologize)
But why on earth do you bring up a C.I.D. to players already turned off of the game? You seem aware that the C.I.D. is a negetive issue. Yes it is one that helps to balance models to a certain extent, but the atmosphere is a hostile negetive mess.
It seems to me that your deep rooted dislike of Privateer Press (and do not know why) is comming through in every post you make.
You may state you want to grow your player base, yet you speak of C.I.D.s and things rather than taking the former player into a fun match and let them see how the games changed for the better.
The amount of MK3 battle reports and resourses outside the C.I.D. (and experimental resource) should be enough to bring players back. I know as Ive recovered 6 players in my area. It took 2 years of talk and games but they returned.
This year im going after some of my 40k friends as they said they would like to try a journeyman league. So im taking on that work load to see if the store will purchase the kit.
I get your frustrations but i never mention C.I.D. as an option because its negetive tones instantly turn players off the game.
I know we have diffrent veiws on this. Still i agree prople get angry about things they care for. Just do not let your anger cloud your judgments. Thats all i am saying.
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Post by dogganmguest on Jan 4, 2019 9:30:23 GMT
Why would you assume someone wouldn't find out about CID on their own?
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jan 4, 2019 9:49:55 GMT
Why would you assume someone wouldn't find out about CID on their own? Except CID is not part of the current state of the game. It influences the future state of it sure, but if play testing doesn't interest you, there is no reason to check it out. I truly don't understand why so many people upset themselves by constantly staying on top of CID and then going "that forum is so toxic" or "the game changes too quickly with all these weekly updates" while no one is forcing them to be there and the actual game only updates once every 2 months or so.
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Post by P'tit Nico on Jan 4, 2019 9:55:18 GMT
Why would you assume someone wouldn't find out about CID on their own? Except CID is not part of the current state of the game. It influences the future state of it sure, but if play testing doesn't interest you, there is no reason to check it out. I truly don't understand why so many people upset themselves by constantly staying on top of CID and then going "that forum is so toxic" or "the game changes too quickly with all these weekly updates" while no one is forcing them to be there and the actual game only updates once every 2 months or so.
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Post by dogganmguest on Jan 4, 2019 10:03:41 GMT
Fine, you don't understand it, but that doesn't make it not a problem for some people. I don't know why it's a problem for the people mentioned necessarily, but there are a few possibilities off the top of my head:
1) The toxic community represents the people who play the game. Some people don't want to play with people who behave this way. This spills out into other areas of game discussion. I am personally tired of hearing how "there should be a limit on who can participate", just because some people don't see things the same way. The implication being "I am a god of good game design, while these people who disagree are Firetrucking simpletons who shouldn't even be allowed a say."
2) Even the regular game updates ("only" every few months) might be too frequent for part-timers or people trying to get back in to the game.
3) CID is prevalent even if you don't take part in it, because a lot of people only seem to play for CID. This is especially true on Vassal. When CID is between cycles it's practically dead, and the rest of the time people only want to test their new stuff.
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Post by slaughtersun on Jan 4, 2019 10:34:51 GMT
Fine, you don't understand it, but that doesn't make it not a problem for some people. I don't know why it's a problem for the people mentioned necessarily, but there are a few possibilities off the top of my head: 1) The toxic community represents the people who play the game. Some people don't want to play with people who behave this way. This spills out into other areas of game discussion. I am personally tired of hearing how "there should be a limit on who can participate", just because some people don't see things the same way. The implication being " I am a god of good game design, while these people who disagree are Firetrucking simpletons who shouldn't even be allowed a say." 2) Even the regular game updates ("only" every few months) might be too frequent for part-timers or people trying to get back in to the game. 3) CID is prevalent even if you don't take part in it, because a lot of people only seem to play for CID. This is especially true on Vassal. When CID is between cycles it's practically dead, and the rest of the time people only want to test their new stuff. These all read to me as a problem of the "community" rather than CiD or PP for that matter...
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