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Post by redcathal on Jan 3, 2019 12:21:02 GMT
Stupid idea incoming but... conflictchamber.com/#c8201b_-0WgU4B4BcHcHcHcHefef5H5H5H5H5A5g5gmV4k5f5fCircle Army - 73 / 75 points [Theme] Call of the Wild [Kaya 3] Kaya the Wildheart [+27] - Gorax Rager [7] - Gorax Rager [7] - Razorwing Griffon [7] - Razorwing Griffon [7] - Razorwing Griffon [7] - Razorwing Griffon [7] - Rotterhorn Griffon [7] - Rotterhorn Griffon [7] - Scarsfell Griffon [8] - Scarsfell Griffon [8] - Scarsfell Griffon [8] - Scarsfell Griffon [8] - Druid Wilder [0(4)] Blackclad Wayfarer [0(4)] Blackclad Wayfarer [0(4)] Gallows Grove [2] Lanyssa Ryssyl, Nyss Sorceress [4] Shifting Stones [3] Shifting Stones [3] No reason behing the list outside def/ box skew. It does have many free charge angles and potentials. This would just be flat better as Una 2, and it doesn't fix the Harbinger problem the OP is posting. If you were going to play a Kaya list it should do something unique that Una 2 doesn't do. I dunno I've played both Kaya and Una in griffon spam and they both have their pros and cons with griffons. If you wanna really skew the def then maybe Kaya is the way to go. That said I would still take some heavies with kaya cos otherwise you're maxing out at POW17 which isn't great.
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Post by newangel on Jan 3, 2019 13:57:17 GMT
First up I'd like to thank those who contributed, and I'll try and give a thorough response (sorry for the delay...work and family stuff got in the way) and explain my own convoluted thoughts.
Wurmwood has in fact been my pair for a while now, and while he does cover some of the bases, he has the same Purification problem that Baldur has. Better stats to survive with for sure, and maybe it's playable, but the fact that they both have similar weaknesses means it's easier to cover for an opponent. Mage Sight in particular just ruins my day in both cases. I could absolutely continue using this as my pair and rely on skill level to win, but I'm pretty sure it would be super easy to tool for my lists and not upset someone else's pairing too much.
Kaya3 is something that recently hit my radar, but I'm not actually sure it helps in enough matchups. Harbinger remains a problem, Skorne remains a problem (I think), and I'm sure Tharn just smash it up badly. Griffons are great, but that 0.5" melee means they are usually only good against single targets. I'm pretty sure multiple medium bases to work through that hit accurately and as hard as they do would be a problem.
Which brings me back to eKrueger. Bones doesn't particularly like weaponmaster spam, though if anyone stands a chance it's certainly eKrueger. I've played Bones under eKrueger into Rasheth (WoD) a ton and I've never liked the matchup. Harbinger is beatable, Tharn may be playable. But I would need more experience into the new Skorne lists I expect to start showing up.
In a moment of utter insanity I had considered eKrueger in Call, then immediately realized that without Geomancers it lacked a lot of the tools eKrueger loves. Which kind of leaves Secret Masters and Wild Hunt. The lack of battlegroup restrictions really opens up list building and allows for some potent combinations, but I think you have to accept you aren't getting many free models, and the FF units within those Themes just suck. So not completely terrible, but to me at least it feels like list optimization is out the window and out of the players control.
So...eKrueger...Secret Masters (the lesser of 2 evils since the minion units are legitimately good). What's next?
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Post by newangel on Jan 5, 2019 13:14:42 GMT
So I had a thought and it actually has me quite excited. How about eKrueger with the Storm Raptor in Dev Host. It wouldn't cover every base (and the more I think about it the closer I get to realizing that it isn't actually possible), but it does play well into other Dev Host lists and has the weight of attacks to power through potential Martyrdoms. I do miss out on Geomancy, but ideally it's about eKrueger delivering the list rather than the list helping him do his thing. Does it sound plausible?
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Post by paradox on Jan 5, 2019 17:07:00 GMT
So I had a thought and it actually has me quite excited. How about eKrueger with the Storm Raptor in Dev Host. It wouldn't cover every base (and the more I think about it the closer I get to realizing that it isn't actually possible), but it does play well into other Dev Host lists and has the weight of attacks to power through potential Martyrdoms. I do miss out on Geomancy, but ideally it's about eKrueger delivering the list rather than the list helping him do his thing. Does it sound plausible? What would it look like?
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Post by LoS Jaden on Jan 5, 2019 18:05:05 GMT
I mean, Krueger 2 played without many geomancers a LOT in mark 2 and it was fine. This looks like fun. conflictchamber.com/#c8201b_-0j4amOmJmImUmUjXmj5wmj5wCircle Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Devourer's Host [Krueger 2] Krueger the Stormlord [+27] - Storm Raptor [34] - Warpwolf Stalker [17] Lord of the Feast [6] Tharn Wolf Rider Champion [0(7)] Tharn Wolf Rider Champion [0(7)] Boil Master & Spirit Cauldron [5] Tharn Ravagers (max) [15] - Tharn Ravager Chieftain [5] Tharn Ravagers (max) [15] - Tharn Ravager Chieftain [5]
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Post by norka19 on Jan 6, 2019 5:27:24 GMT
I think you can play Krueger2 without any wolds but missing out on wolds and gallows groves seems like a bad idea
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Post by newangel on Jan 6, 2019 13:07:32 GMT
@los Jaden - I like the list given, but I was wondering whether or not the Stalker could somehow be replaced with Loki. Doesn't hit as hard, but he sure loves working with Krueger. I'll work on some lists and try and put them on the table next weekend.
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Post by newangel on Jan 7, 2019 13:58:39 GMT
So I have been theory-crafting lists on my commute to and from work and came up with 4 variations that I will probably end up testing at some point. The core remains the same in most cases (34 of these points are pretty essential - LotF and Stones are also just too good to miss out on), but there are some key differences between them:
1. eKrueger -Blood Shaman -Storm Raptor
LotF (free) Wolf Rider Champion (free) Wolf Rider Champion (free) Ravager Shaman White Mane
Max Ravagers + CA Max Ravagers + CA Brighid and Caul Croc Pot Shifting Stones
2. eKrueger -Storm Raptor -Gorax
LotF (free) Wolf Rider Champion (free) Wolf Rider Champion (free) White Mane Ravager Shaman
Max Ravagers + CA Min Wolf Riders Brighid and Caul Croc Pot Shifting Stones
3. eKrueger -Blood Shaman -Storm Raptor -Gorax
LotF (free) Wolf Rider Champion (free) White Mane Ravager Shaman
Max Ravagers + CA Max Ravagers + CA Shifting Stones Croc Pot
4.eKrueger -Blood Shaman -Storm Raptor -Loki
LotF (free) Wolf Rider Champion (free) Wolf Rider Champion Ravager Shaman White Mane Gobber Chef
Max Ravagers + CA Shifting Stones Croc Pot
IMO the key differences in most cases aren't really in the units, but the battlegroup and (a little less importantly) some of the solos. Adding Loki, Blood Shaman and Croc Pot along with eKrueger gives tons of potential for backstab opportunities on the wolf riders. It does however come at the cost of less units. However, this would ideally be to deal with very specific lists which means I think it's worth targeting those quite aggressively and taking some risks. An alternative is I go warrior heavy and utilize just the bird (maybe with Gorax) as my sole source of Fury. The bird itself deals with many Dev Host lists I'm likely to see, so that's a concern dealt with. Being able to pull multiple models out of martyrdom range hurts Harbinger, but whether it is enough or not remains to be seen - I'm hoping to get to play that match-up next weekend so some practice will be useful.
Skorne is the biggest unknown for me. We have a solid player in our meta, our paths just don't seem to cross that often. He also runs a lot of different things so even if I do get a few games in, the lists he brings to the next steamroller may be completely different. Please take this as another request for advice.
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Post by Trollock on Jan 7, 2019 21:05:11 GMT
newangelWhy do you view the shifting stones as key to the list? I wouldnt have considered them at all here. Also, i think the version with only the raptor as battle group is not viable. Only generating 4 fury a turn (3 if you want to be able to transfer) is just not enough imo.
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Post by newangel on Jan 8, 2019 7:14:57 GMT
newangel Why do you view the shifting stones as key to the list? I wouldnt have considered them at all here. Also, i think the version with only the raptor as battle group is not viable. Only generating 4 fury a turn (3 if you want to be able to transfer) is just not enough imo.
The shifting stones serve several different purposes. They are great at contesting (especially when the triangle is broken), and with Krueger can act as lightning rods. However, the main reason would be for LotF and Loki (maybe even sometimes Krueger himself). There is nothing better than having that kind of threat extension in addition to TK. I have seen LotF single-handedly tie up a flank as key units refuse to move into his threat range. Increasing that range seems pretty incredible IMO.
With regards to the Storm Raptor as the only source of Fury I agree it's a risk, but I feel it's worth exploring. There will be a lot of bodies in the way and Krueger's control game is strong enough that I'm not sure it will be an issue. Not convinced either way yet, but until I've at least tried it I won't write it off.
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Post by jisidro on Jan 8, 2019 10:09:50 GMT
@los Jaden
IMO you need primal. The potential MAT 8, POW 20 is critical IMO. Sometimes you just need muscle to clear something up or even assassinate someone. I'd go with Feral.
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Post by newangel on Jan 16, 2019 13:34:53 GMT
So I ended up getting some practice into PoM. Not Harbinger, but Durst, in EI with a list that would have been run pretty well by Harby.
Ended up taking version 4 (above) into):
Durst -Judicator
Gravus Rhupert
Max Cinerators + CA Max Cinerators + CA KE + CA Min Choir
Shrine
I won the roll off and went first. First turn for both us was pretty much just running (though 1 unit of DP'ed Cinerators mini-feated to get better board space). Top of turn 2 was kind of crazy though. I sacrificed the bird to trade with the Shrine. Did it's job and got rid of a couple of KE as well with electro-leaps. Final attack removed the Cinerator CA. Both Wolf Riders got into the back of the Judicator and took out almost one side with some nice spikes. eKrueger added some firepower (with Bird animus from the safety of behind a building) to take off a few more boxes. Loki then charged and removed it with his last attack. 3 Ravagers charged and took out 2 Cinerators from the mini-feated unit. The rest were in a position to take advantage of Vengeance. LotF then went and removed 4 Cinerators from the unit that ran.
My opponent was a bit shocked but tried to make the best of it. He mini-feated with his KE and got rid of the bird (though lost 2 more KE while doing so). My opponent also planned to get rid of Loki by clearing the path currently blocked by LotF for Durst to charge directly. Somehow he managed to survive on a single box from 2 Cinerator charges and a fully loaded Gravus. We called it there.
So while it wasn't quite the match-up I was hoping for, it did show that the list has some game. Loki may not be the best choice though so I'm considering dropping him for a Feral. That would really help in the armor cracking department, and Primal on the bird late game may be helpful. This time the amount of control felt like I had prioritized it too heavily over actual damage dealing. I'm liking the feel of the list and looking forward to more games.
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