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Post by Big Fat Troll on Dec 31, 2018 1:14:49 GMT
So I'm excited for the new product line from Reaper. Bones Black sounds very promising. I like Bones a lot as it is, and this stuff sounds even better for apparently not much more cost. They say it's competitive with metal and resin in its ability to hold detail. Which, to get us back on topic, does get me thinking.
It does seem that one problem Privateer has is simply a matter of materials, supply chains, and costs. Reaper seems to have that figured out. If this stuff really is that good, could it be suitable for wargames, even the quality that we're used to? I hear that the new GW models are even better than PP's expensive ones, but I'm not familiar with those. Still, could it be possible to contract with Reaper to make at least new battle boxes? Could that bring low-cost actual complete armies (even at 25 points) within reach?
For that matter, look at the nature of the problems that PP is having beyond the supply chain. They may yet be priced out of Seattle rents. They never were great at communication, their website is a dinosaur, and their customer service has been slipping.
But land is cheaper in Texas and Reaper excels in all of these areas. They were trying to get wargames of their own off the ground for years, though I don't know if they still are. It wasn't very long ago that we were talking about how Matt might sell the company, with no small worry as to who might be buying. The likely suspects all sounded terrible- Hasbro, Asmodee, and so on, but Reaper is a great company. One of the best, really.
Even if not an outright sale, would a merger be out of the question? Either way, Wilson could retire and Pagani could go back to Texas and work for us again. We'd have new minis that are apparently about as good for significantly less money. Maybe some new sculpts too. It would take a few years to complete such a transition, but maybe they could work on a Mk 3.5 in that time, or get caught up on CID changes, though the economy will probably be really bad for most of that time.
Anyway, what do you guys think? Does a sale or merger with Reaper sound like a good idea? Do you think they'd be interested? I wonder if there's anything we can do to help.
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Dec 31, 2018 3:54:20 GMT
Honestly, after seeing the Soles and Wilson train wreck of MK3, I kind of want someone else to come in and take control. What that means long-term I'm not sure, as I don't know if it will be a significant shift in the focus of the game and the way it is played, but I do know that the Wilson/Soles combo has done enough damage already, so I'm willing, as a consumer, to gamble.
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Post by scarecrow on Dec 31, 2018 4:19:12 GMT
Wilson created the game and Soles has been the lead developer since MK1. They have literally made the game what it is. I don't understand your reasoning for "the damage they've done"
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Dec 31, 2018 4:29:11 GMT
I feel like there are a lot of assumptions here.
First, there is the assumption that Bones Black is going to be good, and that Reaper has all the distribution and supply chain figured out, and that distributors and FLGSs are more likely to stock Warmachine just because it is made by Reaper and not PP. I don't know what the scene is like in Europe, but I know my FLGS in Canada got out of Reaper and switched to WizKids because they were easier for them to get in from distribution. I'm hopeful for the quality of the models and will definitely be picking up that Owlbear in January to test them out, but while it looks promising, we aren't sure yet how it will go.
Then, do we know that there actually are plans to sell the company, or that their financials are in bad shape, or that rent is causing them problems? Wasn't that all speculation and internet chatter? And even if they do want to sell, do we think Reaper would be actually interested? They've made some games off and on, but it seems to me like they want to just focus on miniatures and not get into game design - didn't they just do the miniatures for CAV and get someone else to do the rules? Making games seems like going outside of their core competency. Especially given that the Warmachine community has very high standards on things like balance, etc.
Finally, once all is said and done, are we sure that Reaper will be able to do it cheaper? First, the cost of miniatures is largely based on spreading the tooling costs out over a large number of units sold. Part of the reason why Reaper is able to do that with Bones is because they rake in millions of dollars on kickstarters which can pay off the tooling and then everything else is gravy. Does PP have the same volume of sales as Reaper has, including Bones kickstarters? Second, I suspect that one of the reasons why Reaper miniatures are so cheap compared to a lot of others is because they don't have the same overhead that a game company has. They don't have to write rules, or playtest, or manage organized play, or pay someone to read everything on the CID forum. All the money to cover that overhead has to come from somewhere, and given that books aren't a thing anymore, the rules are free, and War Room has its own overhead from having to pay the folks at TinkerHouse, that's probably baked into the cost of a mini. So, once we factor in the overhead and the possible differences in volume, it is far from clear that Reaper would be able to do it cheaper.
So, the long and short of it is that we don't know if PP wants to sell, Reaper wants to buy, or either party wants a merger, and we aren't sure if there would actually be any benefits if something like this came to fruition. And there's not really anything we can do about it, given that anything like this would be a negotiation between two privately owned companies.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Dec 31, 2018 8:01:27 GMT
crimsyn I am not making any assumptions at all. Not one, and that's not just splitting hairs. I am asking questions, stating hopes and opinions, and speculating upon possibilities. I thought that I had made that clear, but I chose the quote in my sig for a reason. I'm reminded of a guy in a local Facebook group who will tear me a new orifice if I don't write these things like a paranoid lawyer. I find that galling, but in this post, honestly, I equivocated slightly more than what I thought would likely be necessary. You do raise some good points and offer some good answers to some of my questions. Some are important and relevant details which I had not fully considered. Still, it's a real pet peeve of mine when people want to argue with something I've written without bothering to read it, and I would surely have thought that to be the case here if I had just skimmed your response. So: -I'm hoping that Reaper has indeed figured out something about materials that could potentially be helpful to Warmachine, even though there's not much to go on until we see the Bones Black minis. -One of the local stores also carries far more WizKids than Reaper, so I know what you mean, but FWIW Reaper did say that they were confident in their ability to keep Bones Black in stock, and they are doing a Q&A soon, where I'm sure that someone will ask about international distribution. -PPS will have to mend fences with the retailers anyway. Maybe Reaper could help. -We don't know that they are selling the company. There are indicators in either direction. Same with Reaper's end of that. I'm asking about possibilities because I don't know which are most plausible.
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fanguad
Junior Strategist
Posts: 210
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Post by fanguad on Dec 31, 2018 13:52:03 GMT
I don't see this happening for a lot of reasons.
1. Reaper has fairly consistently shown a lack of interest in making games. They made Warlord and CAV, but haven't updated either in a decade. CAV (the rules) is now done by someone else. 2. Reaper moves a lot of miniatures, but they're actually a pretty small company. I think they have approximately the same number of employees as Privateer Press. They almost certainly don't have the capital to outright buy PP. 3. Reaper's Bones supply chain comes from China, so while they could have a better relationship with the Chinese factories that makes things smoother, they are in the same general situation as PP when it comes to acquiring plastic minis. 4. Even if PP was being sold, and even if all the "big names" at PP decided to up and move shop to Texas, they'd still lose a lot of their employees (who don't want to move) which would do a lot of short-term damage to the company. 5. I do love Reaper, but I would take their Bones Black Press Release with a grain of salt. I imagine that Bones Black has more detail than regular Bones, but it's probably a bit of puffery to say it has the detail of resin. 6. Even if the companies wanted to merge, you can't just redo thousands of molds into the new format. Reaper has only scratched the surface of converting their back catalog into Bones and they've been working on it for 5+ years now.
It's not strictly impossible that there could be collaboration between these companies, but the odds of that happening are vanishingly low.
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Post by NephMakes on Dec 31, 2018 15:11:49 GMT
I hear that the new GW models are even better than PP's expensive ones, but I'm not familiar with those. GW plastics are better than PP sprue plastics, but I think at least half of it is model/sprue design rather than manufacturing. GW sprues are pretty clever about putting joints and mold lines in convenient places, and at putting model details in places where they come out clean, undistorted, and without too many filled-in undercuts. I wouldn't be surprised if current GW models are concepted, designed, and sculpted while always keeping in mind how they'd be produced as plastics. PP's plastic warjacks, on the other hand, gave me the impression that casting and modelmaking were things that were dealt with very late in the design and sculpting process, and a lot of the original sculpt didn't translate well.
But to be honest, PP's newer resin sculpts are amazing and have all the detail and quality of GW plastics. Plus PP's single resin figures like solos and whatnot tend to be much cheaper (~US$10) than GW's single-figure plastics (~US$30). If only the battleboxes and starter sets had such quality...
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Post by ankiseth on Dec 31, 2018 15:34:56 GMT
You post too many topics.
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Post by Rork on Dec 31, 2018 16:06:54 GMT
[quote]But to be honest, PP's newer resin sculpts are amazing and have all the detail and quality of GW plastics. Plus PP's single resin figures like solos and whatnot tend to be much cheaper (~US$10) than GW's single-figure plastics (~US$30). If only the battleboxes and starter sets had such quality...
[/quote]
The big issue for me is that a lot of PP’s resin stuff is translated into metal outside of North America. The weight can get silly and being cast in metal can negatively affect the quality 😐
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Post by NephMakes on Dec 31, 2018 16:25:51 GMT
The big issue for me is that a lot of PP’s resin stuff is translated into metal outside of North America. The weight can get silly and being cast in metal can negatively affect the quality 😐 Ah, yeah. Large, top-heavy jacks and beasts with skinny legs and skinny upper-arms cast in soft metal... not the best combination. My older metal models started breaking after only a few games. Now I have a blanket policy to repose at-risk models or remake at-risk parts using stronger materials.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Dec 31, 2018 18:21:52 GMT
crimsyn I am not making any assumptions at all. Not one, and that's not just splitting hairs. I am asking questions, stating hopes and opinions, and speculating upon possibilities. I thought that I had made that clear, but I chose the quote in my sig for a reason. I'm reminded of a guy in a local Facebook group who will tear me a new orifice if I don't write these things like a paranoid lawyer. I find that galling, but in this post, honestly, I equivocated slightly more than what I thought would likely be necessary. You do raise some good points and offer some good answers to some of my questions. Some are important and relevant details which I had not fully considered. Still, it's a real pet peeve of mine when people want to argue with something I've written without bothering to read it, and I would surely have thought that to be the case here if I had just skimmed your response. So: -I'm hoping that Reaper has indeed figured out something about materials that could potentially be helpful to Warmachine, even though there's not much to go on until we see the Bones Black minis. -One of the local stores also carries far more WizKids than Reaper, so I know what you mean, but FWIW Reaper did say that they were confident in their ability to keep Bones Black in stock, and they are doing a Q&A soon, where I'm sure that someone will ask about international distribution. -PPS will have to mend fences with the retailers anyway. Maybe Reaper could help. -We don't know that they are selling the company. There are indicators in either direction. Same with Reaper's end of that. I'm asking about possibilities because I don't know which are most plausible. Just to respond to some of your comments directed at me, I did read your OP, and it seems to me like there are some assumptions in there though, either explicit or implicit. For example, the contention that PP "may yet be priced out of Seattle rents" implies that they are having financial issues and rent is a major part of that. Or that Reaper has supply chains, materials, and costs figured out beyond Kickstarters and direct orders from their website to the US and Canada. I didn't mean to tear you a new orfice, but I think there are dozens of reasons why a sale or merger with Reaper is just so unrealistic that even raising it as a possibility is pretty out there. I also feel that the "just asking questions" approach isn't exactly a great way to have a discussion, because it allows us to just throw anything out there without much to back it up, then if someone points out that there isn't anything to suggest that that is remotely the case, one can back down and say "well, I'm just asking questions." It's part of why the discourse in the WMH community has been so negative as of late, because people have been speculating on things like PP's health, the motives of PP staff who are leaving, etc., without a whole lot of evidence, and if enough people post things like "Is PP in an irreversible death spiral? Just asking questions," then that is going to have an impact on how the community perceives PP and talks about things. I mean, all this discussion about PP being in dire financial straits and Matt Wilson looking to sell the company seems to have snowballed from someone saying on a podcast "hmmm, I wonder if these mystery box sales are an attempt to improve the balance sheet to prepare for a sale." And, that is to say nothing of the issues that the "just asking questions" approach is having on our society right now when people say things like "Did Obama fake his birth certificate because he's a secret Kenyan Muslim trying to take America down from within? Just asking questions." Anyways, I didn't mean to offend you with my response, I just don't see this as a realistic possibility. Even if PP is looking for a suitor to buy them out or merge with them, Reaper doesn't seem like a likely choice. After all, people say things to the effect of "PP is a game company that happens to make miniatures, GW is a miniatures company that happens to make a game" all the time. Well, Reaper is a miniatures company that has shown that they are not interested in making games as that is outside their core competency (I think the CEO said something to that effect on an episode of Reaper Live?), so any interest in a merger with PP would be very surprising to say the least.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Dec 31, 2018 20:35:43 GMT
crimsyn That's all perfectly understandable. I follow politics quite closely, so I am familiar with the trick of speculation used as an argument in bad faith. I asked questions because I didn't know enough about the particulars to have a clear picture of the potentials. FWIW, I am looking for possibilities about which to be optimistic, even though I might be reaching further than I'd realized. If I wanted to grouse about my anxieties I would focus more on indicators like the Seattle real estate market, the clearance sales, and the personnel shifts. But those could also be indicators of a move, a sale, or a change in materials or supply chain. I must admit that the real problem is those worries but they might be much less pervasive among the players if PPS would ever tell us anything.
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vlad
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 53
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Post by vlad on Dec 31, 2018 23:08:25 GMT
I don’t think Reaper would be a good partner for PP.
PP strengths (purely subjective) are the IP (which after almost 20 years is one of the richest out there), miniature design, the strength of their rules sets, own paint line, and community management (which while not at its best lately, is still quite good). Their weaknesses are model manufacturing (compared to what others are putting out recently PP is sadly lacking in quality), sales channel management and limited resources preventing them from leveraging some of their strengths.
Reaper doesn’t strike me as a partner able and/or willing to leverage the above to mutual benefit. As much as I’d be sceptical about such a move, Fantasy Flight strikes me as a company that could be a good partner for PP.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Dec 31, 2018 23:34:18 GMT
Paint is another good point... even if PP and Reaper were to merge, the PP paint line would likely be straight up discontinued because Reaper manufactures their own paint in house and has no need to continue paying HMG (I think?) to produce paint for them. Especially right after they discontinued one of their own paint lines.
Which, I suppose is one way to get #DropperBottleCID...
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Jan 1, 2019 5:28:54 GMT
Paint is another good point... even if PP and Reaper were to merge, the PP paint line would likely be straight up discontinued because Reaper manufactures their own paint in house and has no need to continue paying HMG (I think?) to produce paint for them. Especially right after they discontinued one of their own paint lines. Which, I suppose is one way to get #DropperBottleCID... But I do think that the P3 paints are generally the best on the market.
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