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Post by greytemplar on Dec 31, 2018 4:26:43 GMT
Getting rid of templates was an awful idea in 40k and its a worse idea for WMH. Templates reduce bad randomness. Plus they make the game ‘feel’ more realistic. It enhances the game experience and is more balanced than just rolling dice. It also makes your placement of your models matter.
In 40k now positioning of your dudes doesn’t matter at all. The game is worse off for it.
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Post by Charistoph on Dec 31, 2018 6:02:27 GMT
Positioning still matters a little, but only in relation to LoS and Cover. Templates were also little used in some armies while prevalent in others. Interestingly enough, the cannon users were the most upset since they couldn't use their lines of death, and the weapon was used to be little more than raw damage on a single model.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Dec 31, 2018 8:04:34 GMT
Positioning still matters a little, but only in relation to LoS and Cover. Templates were also little used in some armies while prevalent in others. Interestingly enough, the cannon users were the most upset since they couldn't use their lines of death, and the weapon was used to be little more than raw damage on a single model. I just don't see how to get rid of sprays and AOE in Warmachine, and I'm pretty good at streamlining systems like game rules.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Dec 31, 2018 8:38:25 GMT
Getting rid of templates was an awful idea in 40k and its a worse idea for WMH. Templates reduce bad randomness. Plus they make the game ‘feel’ more realistic. It enhances the game experience and is more balanced than just rolling dice. It also makes your placement of your models matter. In 40k now positioning of your dudes doesn’t matter at all. The game is worse off for it. I agree, I didn't like the change for that exact reason. The player has even fewer things to think about in a game of WH40K now, as another aspect was taken away from him and relegated to blind luck. No more considering if it's better to bunch up in cover/to be more effective in close combat but risk being hit by templates.
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Post by cgdeth on Dec 31, 2018 11:30:00 GMT
Positioning still matters a little, but only in relation to LoS and Cover. Templates were also little used in some armies while prevalent in others. Interestingly enough, the cannon users were the most upset since they couldn't use their lines of death, and the weapon was used to be little more than raw damage on a single model. I just don't see how to get rid of sprays and AOE in Warmachine, and I'm pretty good at streamlining systems like game rules. Maybe some form of Ashes to Ashes. You hit one model and the D3/D6/XD6 models within 3" or 4"... You get the idea. Imho: Templates were only effective against inexperienced horde armies in 40k 2" cohesion is a lot of room with 30 models but I don't want to drag a WMH conversation off into the weeds of 40k.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Dec 31, 2018 11:59:38 GMT
I just don't see how to get rid of sprays and AOE in Warmachine, and I'm pretty good at streamlining systems like game rules. Maybe some form of Ashes to Ashes. You hit one model and the D3/D6/XD6 models within 3" or 4"... You get the idea. Imho: Templates were only effective against inexperienced horde armies in 40k 2" cohesion is a lot of room with 30 models but I don't want to drag a WMH conversation off into the weeds of 40k. Sure, you can do it, but Cyel makes a good point: why bother with spacing anymore when you can just have "luck" do your job for you?
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Dec 31, 2018 13:44:40 GMT
Unit combat resolution takes a long time compared to other systems, even though unit sizes are relatively the same. The biggest problem to surmount is the way dice are rolled for an attack resolution. It's difficult to roll large groups of 2d6s...
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Dec 31, 2018 14:07:59 GMT
Templates are are fun. I hated seeing them removed from warhammer and don't know anyone who liked, just like I don't know anyone who liked the new magic system from 6th fantasy. Sometimes streamlining isn't what's best simply because it takes away to much of the fun or atmosphere.
Look at the diablo franchise, D1 to D2, awesome transition. Part 3 was a piece of @#&£ but a lot more streamlined. Listen to Metallica, who doesn't like the early albums best. The souls games, Dark souls 2 and 3 are prime examples of how not to streamline a game (bloodborne came out excellent though)
Warmachine... I think just grew too big. When you turn a complex skirmishgame into a fullfledged wargame, things happen without there being anything wrong with specifics.
But it can be done. D&D 4th was a terrible idea, but I think they got it right in 5th as they tried to simplify 3.5
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mrtuna
Junior Strategist
Posts: 117
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Post by mrtuna on Dec 31, 2018 16:04:17 GMT
Unit combat resolution takes a long time compared to other systems, even though unit sizes are relatively the same. The biggest problem to surmount is the way dice are rolled for an attack resolution. It's difficult to roll large groups of 2d6s... This is true. I think about this when I walk up with shocktroopers and all 6 attack a heavy. How far can I mod my dice rolling? If I rolled 6 colors of 2d6.. like 2 red, 2 blue, 2 green.. could I make all 6 attacks at once? Then all 6 damage rolls at once? Reduce it down to 2 rolls to get 6 attacks off?
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Post by NephMakes on Dec 31, 2018 16:35:28 GMT
Unit combat resolution takes a long time compared to other systems, even though unit sizes are relatively the same. The biggest problem to surmount is the way dice are rolled for an attack resolution. It's difficult to roll large groups of 2d6s... Rolling 2d6 gives you nice probability distributions that don't have too much variance. 1d6 only gives you that if you're rolling several at once. So the issue is balancing randomness in single-model combat against resolution time for larger units.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Dec 31, 2018 16:48:44 GMT
Would it help to simply further proliferate CMA and CRA? At least on the 10-man units?
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mrtuna
Junior Strategist
Posts: 117
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Post by mrtuna on Dec 31, 2018 17:00:43 GMT
Would it help to simply further proliferate CMA and CRA? At least on the 10-man units? A lot of times you choose NOT to do a CRA or CMA for more damage. Sucks if you need to make a lower damage attack to save clock time ;(
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Post by NephMakes on Dec 31, 2018 17:09:38 GMT
The system that Warhammer Underworlds (Shadespire and Nightvault) uses is the kind of thing that would probably scale up easily. My understanding is that it uses specialty attack dice with common and rare facings that you could, for example, tie to low-damage or high-damage attacks, respectively. And mostly you're rolling 2+ attack dice (I think). For units you could just roll more dice. But it'd be a major change to implement something like that in WarmaHordes.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Dec 31, 2018 17:33:35 GMT
I like templates, but wouldn't mind streamlining Deviation some. Mostly I hate how inconsistent and random it is, yet "just do blast damage" is still considered the solution to dealing with high def or stealth units for so many armies.
If I had to pick though. Simplifying the death rules would be much better in my opinion. There's way too much to resolve when a model dies.
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Post by greytemplar on Dec 31, 2018 17:41:35 GMT
Deviation in WMH is streamlined. It can only deviate in 6 directions and for a maximum of 6 set distances.
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