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Post by Big Fat Troll on Dec 30, 2018 2:18:43 GMT
If you had to pick one thing about Warmachine/Hordes to streamline or simplify, what would it be? And exactly one thing- not two or zero.
I might actually choose the power attack rules, at least throws. That was always one of the most fun and unique things about the game but how often do you see somebody say "Screw it, I'll just walk up and attack," because it doesn't seem worthwhile? I love the dire trolls and the Mauler, and I still don't have the throw rules memorized.
I have some guesses as to what some of the more common choices might be, but FWIW I am glad that the cavalry rules are much improved over Mk2 and I'm pretty happy with them now.
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Post by mcdermott on Dec 30, 2018 2:41:54 GMT
Power attacks is probably mine too. I'd probably drop the focus/fury cost entirely.
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Post by gedditoffme on Dec 30, 2018 7:34:16 GMT
I’d probably merge “being thrown” and “being slammed”: distinctions are minor and confusing, and I don’t think throws would be that different if a successful str check resulted in the target being slammed. Arguable eliminate power attack throw completely and replace other special ability throws with slams.
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tomw
Junior Strategist
Posts: 128
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Post by tomw on Dec 30, 2018 7:57:31 GMT
For me it would be call to sacrifice/sacrificial pawn/sucker/many others. Even veteran players get them mixed up, and while there are subtle differences, the basic effect is the same.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Dec 30, 2018 8:39:57 GMT
Power attacks and their effects too for me. They have absurdly long and convoluted rules, especially when compared with their actual impact.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Dec 30, 2018 9:07:49 GMT
One thing that might benefit from simplification is the whole boxed/destroyed/whatever thing, and how different effects trigger at different times. Working out if something gets tough or gives souls or whether it can be brought back by recursion effects or whatever depending on what tech the attacker had can get confusing. Well, it's the first thing that comes to my mind anyway, not sure it's the biggest problem or anything.
Honestly though, the rules that annoy me the most and that I wish would be re-written are a few of the terrain rules. There's rules about elevation that are confusing, and the rules about getting concealment etc are just broken. Like, if I'm in a cloud I get concealment because enemy models can't see me very well, if I step backwards suddenly enemy can see me clearly, but step a bit more backwards and now they can't see me at all. It's such a terrible rule.
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Post by GumbaFish on Dec 30, 2018 13:19:06 GMT
The power attack rules. I simply find I don't make that many of them because I'm not 100% sure of the rules and don't want to take the time in the middle of a game to check them.
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Post by netdragon on Dec 30, 2018 13:44:55 GMT
Army creation.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Dec 30, 2018 17:08:13 GMT
I'd want to list a lot, but if you insist on singling out I'd choose template rules altogether.
GW completely removed them and no one ever complained about them being gone, it even smoothed out the gameplay and removed things to argue about.
Weapons that scale off the unit model count should stay, but all the long resolutions of scatter, popping solos/casters off the big dumb target and fishing for scatter on stealth needs to go away forever.
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Post by michael on Dec 30, 2018 17:51:33 GMT
Wow. Power attacks win games. I am... surprised that people don’t spend a couple of minutes to learn them.
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Post by michael on Dec 30, 2018 17:53:44 GMT
I'd want to list a lot, but if you insist on singling out I'd choose template rules altogether. GW completely removed them and no one ever complained about them being gone, it even smoothed out the gameplay and removed things to argue about. Weapons that scale off the unit model count should stay, but all the long resolutions of scatter, popping solos/casters off the big dumb target and fishing for scatter on stealth needs to go away forever. How would you suggest people have a chance to remove Stealth models/solos, without scatter? “I camp safely on this flag forever” sounds.. bad. Also that would pretty much instantly obsolete quite a few models, including many weapon crews...
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Post by michael on Dec 30, 2018 17:55:59 GMT
I’d probably merge “being thrown” and “being slammed”: distinctions are minor and confusing, and I don’t think throws would be that different if a successful str check resulted in the target being slammed. Arguable eliminate power attack throw completely and replace other special ability throws with slams. Throws go over, slams go through. You can (potentially) resist being thrown, you can’t resist being slammed. You can aim a throw (to a good degree), you can’t aim a slam. You have to move 3” to make a slam, you don’t have any movement restrictions on throws. Throws move a model a fixed distance (dependent on the throwing model), slams move a random distance. And so on, and so forth...
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Post by borderprince on Dec 30, 2018 18:16:29 GMT
For me it would be call to sacrifice/sacrificial pawn/sucker/many others. Even veteran players get them mixed up, and while there are subtle differences, the basic effect is the same. Another for this. I'm not convinced we need all the different variations of these.
If we're talking power attacks, I'd think whether it is worth bringing impact attacks (cavalry) and trample (jacks/beasts) into line with one another. But throws/slams are fine as is and really useful tools. Possibly lose the focus/fury cost for them (losing initials is a big loss anyway).
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Post by Charistoph on Dec 30, 2018 20:39:05 GMT
I'd want to list a lot, but if you insist on singling out I'd choose template rules altogether. GW completely removed them and no one ever complained about them being gone, it even smoothed out the gameplay and removed things to argue about. Weapons that scale off the unit model count should stay, but all the long resolutions of scatter, popping solos/casters off the big dumb target and fishing for scatter on stealth needs to go away forever.
Oh, there were complaints, especially from those who felt they were going to be losing hits from the random aspect when compared to their pie plates and laser lines of doom. Most of them happened during AoS' launch. By the time 40K went to 8th they actually had some hard data of experience so they weren't as bad.
That having been said, Warhammer has always been about the unit interactions, while WMH is about model interactions. That may not seem like much, but it makes a huge difference when addressing template concepts. In Warhammer, when a model fires at a unit, spreading the damage around is easy. However, in WMH, models only fire at a model, ever, with the templates affecting the surrounding models based on the template.
Now, an AOE hit is rather easy to figure out, but unless one is willing to get rid of deviation, the misses will be affected the most. Getting rid of deviation may be desirable if one went to a 'blast damage to D3/D6 models within x"' concept, and already exists in the game.
Sprays would also be an interesting challenge, as it hits more the farther it goes, both in line and width (though not as much as GW's Template did). The alternative would be almost a version of Electro-Leap with an emphasis on being opposite from the model being hit as to just being around it.
It could work, it may not. Find someone with an AOE and Spray heavy army and try it out, but they may end up just preferring the templates.
Wow. Power attacks win games. I am... surprised that people don’t spend a couple of minutes to learn them.
This is a request for streamlining, it doesn't necessarily mean elimination, just making them easier/quicker to use.
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Post by gedditoffme on Dec 30, 2018 22:33:42 GMT
I’d probably merge “being thrown” and “being slammed”: distinctions are minor and confusing, and I don’t think throws would be that different if a successful str check resulted in the target being slammed. Arguable eliminate power attack throw completely and replace other special ability throws with slams. Throws go over, slams go through. You can (potentially) resist being thrown, you can’t resist being slammed. You can aim a throw (to a good degree), you can’t aim a slam. You have to move 3” to make a slam, you don’t have any movement restrictions on throws. Throws move a model a fixed distance (dependent on the throwing model), slams move a random distance. And so on, and so forth... My focus is on being thrown: where the main difference is impacting smaller models va flying over them. It feels like we repeat the same rules for such a minor change.
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