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Post by hocestbellum on Dec 27, 2018 14:02:23 GMT
By the Khador Zodiac, of course.
Almost time for some new arbitrary resolutions! My 2018 aim was to give themes a fair shot, but what actually happened was I basically spent all year playing Armoured Corps. It supplanted all my infantry lists, and I was a little surprised to find that it also replaced my jack lists too. I guess Armoured Corps fills both the 'Infantry' and 'Tanky' slots pretty neatly. And, of course, it's still shiny and new given how infrequently I play.
But I do love me some warjacks, so my 2019 resolution is to play more warjacks. But that's too easy, so I'm also going to do it with less successful casters. And I'm going to try to avoid using our jack theme. And no jackspam: I have to take a reasonable amount of units.
Why all the restrictions? Because it's more fun that way, and maybe I'll discover something interesting. Plus, with the last restriction:
Jackspam is just bad. Karchev being able to run it doesn't mean it's good, it just means that Karchev can run it. Almost all our other casters are pretty damn bad at it. Look back over the discountgames tournament placings; only one placing player used jackspam in the last year, going 2-2 with OW2 at the WTC. From the WTC lists there were 8 Jaws lists, 7 of which were pretty much 'max jacks, 2 units of eliminators, free support, go'. None of the WGK lists (our other jack theme) had more than 2 jacks.
But I've always liked a more balanced list. I'm really surprised how thoroughly the Vlad1 WGK lists with 5 jacks disappeared, but they were delightful. I'm using them as something of a model in this regard.
I'm hedging my bets in a couple of regards. If the Wolves changes stick, I think it represents an excellent Jack list option for some casters, and I want to test that. I also feel like people are waiting for S0 to be the one true saviour of Jack lists, but I'm pretty sure she'll just entrench the status quo (she'll be best with our two most successful Jaws casters, Karchev and B3), so I'd like some alternatives.
So, which casters have I picked? And in which themes? For all of the options below, you can pretty much flat-out assume the Adjunct is in the list. (Maybe not for Hark)
Strakhov1 - 4 placements on DGT, most recent one in July 2017. Increases threat ranges massively, gives pathfinder and free charges, and gets free upkeeps on jacks. Lacks damage boosts. Malakov2 - 1 placement on DGT, August 2017. Flat-out movement boost, gives pathfinder, and his feat is a strangely effective durability boost. Has some neat tricks, too, but lacks damage boosts. Kozlov - 3 placements on DGT, most recent one in August 2017. Boosts threat ranges and durability, and gives pathfinder. Has a single-target damage boost, and a limited movement boost. All-round solid. Harkevich - 1 placement on DGT, July 2016. Big durability boost, free charges, pathfinder, and a speed boost. But once the lines meet he doesn't really have any spells or support abilities. Butcher2 - 2 placements on DGT, last one November 2016. SPD boost, MAT boost, limited damage boost, potentially powerful feat, but pretty much the definition of unreliable!
Winter Guard Kommand - I could see Strakhov, Kozlov and Butcher in this theme. Whilst they can all increase threat ranges, none of them actually get the jacks up the field any faster, which means they benefit from the Advance Move. They are also quite forward-playing casters, so all of them will love having a million meat-shields. And on top of that, they get access to Malakov, who helps with their focus burdens. His jack benefits from their feats, which lets you land some heavy alphas. And the general composition of the theme gives them a lot of charge-lane clearers, or token generators in the case of B2. Malakov probably doesn't want this one as he has a better defensive ability built in, and makes his things pretty fast anyway.
Wolves of Winter - One free choice gets you almost as many points as 2 in Jaws. If that ARM debuff sticks then it solves a lot of these casters' problems; only Kozlov can reliably boost damage. You can pretty much pick how much focus support you want. You've got magic weapons out of the wazoo. You get access to Ruin, who is great. Strakhov and Malakov can really make the Doom Reavers sing. This is the only one I'd run Harkevich in because of the ARM debuff and focus support. I don't think I'd run B2 in this, as I think he wants Malakov more than Forge Seers and he can already take Ruin. Not 100% convinced Kozlov runs this either.
Jaws of the Wolf - Again, the presence of Malakov means that Strakhov, Kozlov and B2 could have some fun in this one. Behemoth is really quite excellent with everyone.They all enjoy Eliminators too, and possibly the Assassins. Widowmakers and the Eliminators can be good lane clearers. There's more focus support here, but worse general support for the main bits (Warjacks and warcasters) than WGK. Malakov has some nice synergies with the Kayazy thanks to Veil and Throat Cutter.
So those are my crazy plans for the new year! How about you guys? Anything you've got a mind to try come 2019?
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Dec 27, 2018 15:30:16 GMT
I have had great fun with a Vlad1 WGK list with a Spriggan and three Berserkers.
It should be fun to try out wacky new combos in 2019 as my collection grows.
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Post by hocestbellum on Dec 27, 2018 19:25:41 GMT
Awesome! Berzerkers in particular are something I'm keen to give more of a run out; free charges + Power Up + Canker Frost = 3x P18 attacks. That's the hitting power of a fully loaded Crusader, more or less.
I bet they're great under Vlad's feat and Signs and Portents.
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Post by grimworks on Dec 28, 2018 0:56:03 GMT
Might be worth noting that we'll unlikely see S0's inclusion in Wolves, which does mean that if you want to run a jack build in wolves you may want to consider a caster with innate threat extension and preferably a means to charge for free.
Had the luck to play and chat with a WTC player who came from the same meta as the guy who ran Strakhov1 in Wolves at the last WTC so have some idea into how the list operates, would think that the S1 WoW list would stand quite a bit to benefit from the update when it lands. Strakhov1 is also flexible enough to play in all three options as long as you remember the limited actual arm cracking he has on his card (and bring arm crackers accordingly).
I have a bad addiction to jacks so I'm currently switching to a double jack list pair (Kozlov/Strakhov) where I previously ran AK/Jaws where Kozlov Is built to attempt overwhelming force while Strakhov is the panic button drop. Both lists do heavily depend on the adjunct and S0 coming out as they are though.
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Post by onijet01 on Dec 28, 2018 3:11:10 GMT
I like wolves (assumming cid stays) vlad 1 with 5 mad dogs and 2 beserkers. Feat turn 1 and use cloud spells to place on mad dogs with fleet means they run 18 inches and can make a cloud wall to cover your reavers and supports. But more importantly i can not wait to "Hark it Up!" conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0K8DkRkRkRkR7s7s8fhFhF8h8hnf89nf89nnnnKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Wolves of Winter !!! This army contains CID entries. [Harkevich 1] Kommander Harkevich, the Iron Wolf [+28] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Kodiak [13] - Kodiak [13] - War Dog [3] Greylord Forge Seer [4] Greylord Forge Seer [4] Koldun Lord [4] Koldun Lord [4] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] - Greylord Escort [3] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] - Greylord Escort [3] Greylord Ternion [0(7)] Greylord Ternion [0(7)] Thebfuns in kodiak jacks with ternion clouds. They litterally with 2 jacks make a 10 inch cloud wall. Ternions help with beserker accuracy and damage and harks feat optimizes focus with free charges and mobility. The forgseer and lord are there to privide focus and support
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Post by hocestbellum on Dec 28, 2018 10:06:42 GMT
Might be worth noting that we'll unlikely see S0's inclusion in Wolves, which does mean that if you want to run a jack build in wolves you may want to consider a caster with innate threat extension and preferably a means to charge for free. Had the luck to play and chat with a WTC player who came from the same meta as the guy who ran Strakhov1 in Wolves at the last WTC so have some idea into how the list operates, would think that the S1 WoW list would stand quite a bit to benefit from the update when it lands. Strakhov1 is also flexible enough to play in all three options as long as you remember the limited actual arm cracking he has on his card (and bring arm crackers accordingly). I have a bad addiction to jacks so I'm currently switching to a double jack list pair (Kozlov/Strakhov) where I previously ran AK/Jaws where Kozlov Is built to attempt overwhelming force while Strakhov is the panic button drop. Both lists do heavily depend on the adjunct and S0 coming out as they are though. Conveniently, I have absolutely no interest in running S0 in any of these lists so that problem should pass me by! But you've hit the nail on the head; all of those casters have threat extension, and two have free-charge feats. Oh, I know that list! It was one of the Aussie teams. Okay, so I just went and looked it up; with the CID changes, his list comes to 52 points now. What a staggering difference! He could slot Ruin in and still almost get a 4th unit of Doomies. All the Wolves lists in my mind are predicated on Canker Frost being a thing, and even with that I'm switching Hark's usual Kodiaks to Juggers. I still don't think S0 is going to make that much difference to most casters, but I'll be happy to be proved wrong!
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Post by hocestbellum on Dec 28, 2018 10:50:12 GMT
I like wolves (assumming cid stays) vlad 1 with 5 mad dogs and 2 beserkers. Feat turn 1 and use cloud spells to place on mad dogs with fleet means they run 18 inches and can make a cloud wall to cover your reavers and supports. But more importantly i can not wait to "Hark it Up!" conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0K8DkRkRkRkR7s7s8fhFhF8h8hnf89nf89nnnnKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Wolves of Winter !!! This army contains CID entries. [Harkevich 1] Kommander Harkevich, the Iron Wolf [+28] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Kodiak [13] - Kodiak [13] - War Dog [3] Greylord Forge Seer [4] Greylord Forge Seer [4] Koldun Lord [4] Koldun Lord [4] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] - Greylord Escort [3] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] - Greylord Escort [3] Greylord Ternion [0(7)] Greylord Ternion [0(7)] Thebfuns in kodiak jacks with ternion clouds. They litterally with 2 jacks make a 10 inch cloud wall. Ternions help with beserker accuracy and damage and harks feat optimizes focus with free charges and mobility. The forgseer and lord are there to privide focus and support Heh, I'm still tempering my enthusiasm with Hark; I regard him as the worst caster in Khador, but you have to try things, right? I will say, though, you have 4 focus generators and only two jacks that can use focus! You might consider dropping an Escort to upgrade a Berserker to a Marauder
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Jan 1, 2019 0:09:03 GMT
The Berserker is one of the best-looking warjack models in the game and I do want to get a few. I can probably put together some version of the WGK list without breaking the bank. There are usually WGI lots on eBay and such. conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0f76kRkRkRkRkWkWnj8t7Z7Z7-7-7X7W7X7WKhador Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] Winter Guard Kommand !!! This army contains a CID entry. [Vladimir 1] Vladimir Tzepesci, the Dark Prince [+28] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Juggernaut [13] - Juggernaut [13] - Greylord Adjunct [4] Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich [4] Winter Guard Field Gun Crew [4] Winter Guard Field Gun Crew [4] Winter Guard Mortar Crew [0(5)] Winter Guard Mortar Crew [0(5)] Winter Guard Rifle Corps (min) [8] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] Winter Guard Rifle Corps (min) [8] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6]
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Post by borderprince on Jan 1, 2019 5:48:03 GMT
The Berserker is one of the best-looking warjack models in the game and I do want to get a few. I can probably put together some version of the WGK list without breaking the bank. There are usually WGI lots on eBay and such. Do it!
I've been running Vlad1 + jacks in WGK for quite a while. I think this is the version I'll be trying once the Adjunct is released (testing to see if Guidance replaces the Spriggan and A&H which used to be in the list):
Vlad1
-Berserker
-Berserker
-Berserker
-Marauder
-Marauder -Adjunct
WGI(max) + UA + 2 rockets
WG Rifles (min) + 3 rockets
WG Fieldgun (free)
WG Mortar (free)
Kovnik Joe
Gun Carriage
I really like the Gun Carriage with the fast jacks, but you can probably sub another jack in there instead. Or maybe a jack + Sorscha0 (whose long-awaited appearance makes her the Grolar of Mk3). Additional Boundless Charge on Vlad1's feat turn + S&P, could be fun. Definitely recommend the WGI with the jacks though - they do more work most of the time than the rockets.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jan 1, 2019 12:46:14 GMT
I like both those lists: Vlad1 looks like he makes the Berserkers sing!
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Post by blindfury on Jan 2, 2019 19:27:45 GMT
The changes to Alexia II and the addition of the adjunct make for some interesting jack lists with OW II--especially if Sorscha 0 comes out soon. Alexia II now gives you decent access to counter magic and recursive contesting solos in the attrition game and becomes more durable with s0's fog up. The adjunct becoming in-faction really changes the balance of utility solos and mercenary resources Khador can build into a list. I dunno if it makes jack heavy lists viable but it does make them worth considering.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jan 2, 2019 20:08:40 GMT
I don't think S0 is really worth it in OW2, given that she can spam Boundless Charge anyway and can't benefit from concealment. But Alexia2 is certainly all manner of interesting.
Something I'd be tempted to explore with OW2 (if I wasn't refusing to buy the model) would be Forge Seer marshalled Berzerkers. If she puts Boundless on them, and the Forge Seer uses Crush!, then you can charge and make 4x P18 attacks. So for 1 focus on feat turn, you're getting into 'solo a heavy' territory with an 8 point expendable model. And that's without Curse of Shadows or Canker Frost
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Post by blindfury on Jan 2, 2019 22:00:59 GMT
I'm fond of S0's ability to project fog up the board twards models that are too close to the enemy to benefit from OW's shooting range reduction and power-up is a thing. Your point is well taken though. I feel that while certain tools like s0 may not be the optimal pick, we have enough in-faction elements that I have some elbow room when picking between theme force requirements and utility tools. Honestly, it's nice to be able to look at a model like S0 and be able to say she isn't an auto-include. I'm just theory hammering at this point but it's a nice feeling.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jan 3, 2019 11:19:36 GMT
So I was having a bit more of a think about what jacks would be decent choices for this kind of endeavour. It goes without saying that Marauders, Juggers, Destroyers, Devastators and Kodiaks are always good choices, and that the Demolisher remains useless, but thinking of the others:
Of the elite jacks, I think the Grolar might still be a little expensive, much as I adore it. The Spriggan is in a potentially precarious spot: I've always seen it as a tech piece for stealth mitigation due to its high price compared to its hitting ability. But if the Adjunct comes through with Guidance, where does that leave the Spriggan? I guess it's still better for things like rockets. But either way, it's probably too expensive for these lists.
At the other end of the spectrum, the Berserker chassis; the Rager remains the tankiest Shield Guard in the game, so it's always going to have some use. And as the previous replies to this topic show, there's a fair bit of interest in the Berserker.
It's in a good spot, I feel. With them getting cheaper and more accurate (and with the Marauder getting more expensive) they're a really good candidate for piece trading. They're tough for 8 points, and hit hard enough that you can't really ignore them. If you're sending a unit after it, you have to make absolutely sure it's dead or berserk can ruin your day. (Although everything seems to have tough these days).
But I also have a sneaking suspicion that there might be scope for a one-off Mad Dog in some lists. It's just as cheap and sturdy, but it's slightly faster. P14 isn't great for a heavy (it would be the hardest hitting light, though), but is still a threat to a lot of infantry, as is a P11 trample to single wound stuff. And it can pull of the Trample trick at full capacity as long as it has a single movement box left. I think it's too much of a tech choice to have more than one, though. I wish the punching spikes were open hands to make them more versatile.
And as a passing thought regarding the Decimator; could it have any use as a shooting jack when marshalled? Its main issue has always been accuracy, but on a Forge Seer it could get Strike True to be RAT 6 and use a focus to boost a damage. If something was ever close enough to aim it could be either RAT8 or RAT6 P17, which are some good numbers even unboosted.
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Post by borderprince on Jan 3, 2019 11:39:03 GMT
The Spriggan is in a potentially precarious spot: I've always seen it as a tech piece for stealth mitigation due to its high price compared to its hitting ability. But if the Adjunct comes through with Guidance, where does that leave the Spriggan? I guess it's still better for things like rockets. But either way, it's probably too expensive for these lists. At the other end of the spectrum, the Berserker chassis; the Rager remains the tankiest Shield Guard in the game, so it's always going to have some use. And as the previous replies to this topic show, there's a fair bit of interest in the Berserker. It's in a good spot, I feel. With them getting cheaper and more accurate (and with the Marauder getting more expensive) they're a really good candidate for piece trading. They're tough for 8 points, and hit hard enough that you can't really ignore them. If you're sending a unit after it, you have to make absolutely sure it's dead or berserk can ruin your day. (Although everything seems to have tough these days). But I also have a sneaking suspicion that there might be scope for a one-off Mad Dog in some lists. It's just as cheap and sturdy, but it's slightly faster. P14 isn't great for a heavy (it would be the hardest hitting light, though), but is still a threat to a lot of infantry, as is a P11 trample to single wound stuff. And it can pull of the Trample trick at full capacity as long as it has a single movement box left. I think it's too much of a tech choice to have more than one, though. I wish the punching spikes were open hands to make them more versatile. For the Spriggan, it can be a nice piece to have. You (probably?) won't run multiples, but that doesn't mean having one is a bad idea in a jack list. We all know about the Strakhov1 assassination run with a Spriggan, exploiting Bulldoze and it's longer basic threat than other non-character jacks. Vlad1 can actually do something similar (a pre-Adjunct verson of my list earlier in the thread had a Spriggan and did use the Spriggan like this sometimes). With Sorscha0 coming out it is definitely something to think about. Any caster with speeds buffs for a jack that are independent of Boundles Charge (Butcher3, Harkevich, Irusks1 and 2, Kozlov, Malakov2, OW1 (field marshall), Strakhov2, Vlads1, 2 and 3) can combo with Sorscha1 to have a 13" melee assassination threat with Bulldoze. That's nice to have available.
Berserkers can work, but ideally you want to buff accuracy and/or hitting power (ideally both), preferably also with a free charge. I know that's true of every jack, but if you want them to do piece trading, they need these. Their MAT6 can work against most heavies, but their hitting power is then lacking. P+S16 is good against lights, but MAT6 is too unreliable against DEF13+ models. The free charge is helpful as it means you can use their power-up focus for an extra attack without risking Unstable.
From my Vlad1 experience, what you really need is to be able to get 2 Berserkers onto an opposing heavy (preferably with free charges). The quantity of attacks then makes up for the relatively poor quality. That means you want battlegroup wide buffs, rather than buffs to individual jacks. It's why Vlad1 works so well with Berserkers, as he gives them everything they want. Butcher1 is the other obvious candidate, but he does nothing for threat projection. I've been thinking about an AC list for him with Berserkers as the second wave after the advance move Shocktroopers - opponents need to commit heavy hitters to take out the STs, leaving them open to Full Throttle + Feat Berserkers - haven't tried it though.
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