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Post by Dev Null on May 12, 2017 17:48:10 GMT
When MkIII first dropped, I played a few games with Kaya2, 3 Purebloods and a Feral (I'd post the list, but War Room seems to be down...) It was fun, but not terribly competitive, because it was difficult to stay forward enough to contest scenario. So I'll bet you can see where I'm going with this already.
Under SR2017 rules, I could definitely see resurrecting that list under Kaya3. Scenario pressure way less, plus the advantages you list for Kaya3 and Purebloods. The reposition isn't as good as Kaya2's feat for staying out of trouble, but you can use it multiple times, which is a plus - especially with the aforementioned less scenario pressure. 13" is not going to keep you from being counter-charged by the thing you shot, but you can clear out screening infantry and still stay away from the things they screened. Multiple rounds of shooting with 3 Purebloods really runs up the Fury load, but as you say, Soothing Song will help a lot with that (and the Reposition will help keep you in range to use it.) And a Pureblood may not be a melee monster on it's own, but a Pureblood warping Strength, under Primal and Synergy, and stripping buffs with Wraithbane? It's not horrible.
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Post by Havock on May 12, 2017 22:18:11 GMT
Not to mention that initial mk3 lists were basically "armor, boxes, more armor", which that list would not do too well against.
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Post by Dev Null on May 12, 2017 22:44:41 GMT
Not to mention that initial mk3 lists were basically "armor, boxes, more armor", which that list would not do too well against. Well my meta isn't very meta. But yeah. Thing is though, it does surprisingly well against some ARM lists, just because so many of those rely on ARM buffs - I can't say enough nice things about Wraithbane. And as mentioned before, a buffed Pureblood can actually deal some damage - especially when it's target got hit with 3 boosted POW 14 sprays that ignore ARM buffs last turn. That doesn't kill clamjacks, but it scratches the paint on most things. Got War Room working again. Trying to convert my original list as closely as possible - which is probably NOT a good idea - I end up with: Kaya3 Feral Pureblood x3 Moonhound Wild Argus Sentry Stone x2 Blackclad Wayfarer x2 Swamp Gobber Chef x2 I've added a few things, since Kaya3 has more beast points. Makes it feel a bit support-heavy to me. I'm tempted to: drop both Argii and a Wayfarer for a fourth Pureblood (makes it vulnerable to Stealth lists and very high DEF, but more shooting.) also toss out something else (both Chefs? makes Fury control dodgy...) and upgrade to Loki (if I owned the model.)
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Post by Havock on May 12, 2017 23:23:08 GMT
Don't want a Scarsfel? Those things are utterly obnoxious under feat and animus. Sprays don't care about stealth! And very high DEF is usually achieved via upkeep, meaning...
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Post by Dev Null on May 13, 2017 0:29:41 GMT
I always want a Scarsfell... I just wasn't sure how well it fits in this list. With the loss of Long Leash its hard to play it forward and Kaya and the Purebloods back.
Stealth is _almost_ irrelevant; you have to have something to aim at, even if it's not your real target. But then, that's what Mannikins are for! But you're right; I think I'd rather have another spray and miss a few shots or have to boost to hit, than spend the 13 points on Argii essentially to improve my chances to hit. In the original Kaya2 list I had fewer beast points, so I didn't really see how I could squeeze another one in.
I also like the assassination threat of 4 Purebloods, casting Wraithbane, Assault charging, and double-boosting their spray. Most casters are pretty safe if they camp a few, but there is _nowhere_ that it's safe for you to not camp.
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Post by Havock on May 13, 2017 2:05:41 GMT
Yeah, with the current focus mechanics and most peopel camping 2; boosted POW14's will hurt, especially when you can reliably get them off on targets 19" away, more with clever use of Hunter's Mark...
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Post by Bomma on May 13, 2017 2:22:51 GMT
So my list went -
Kaya 3 2 Stalkers 1 Pureblood 2 Scarsfell 2 Wild Argus
Wayfarer Sentry Stones x 2 Shifting Stones
I had the Stalkers to kick ass, the lights to up synergy, blackclad for threat extension, sentrys for los blocking and stones to stone stuff. Maybe trying to get primal in there somehow would be cool.. turning something up past 11 with full synergy would make something dead that needed to be dead, or also dealing with armour/box spam.
The +2 def for one round was awesome on everything, making the lights particularly annoying to deal with. Very close to Una2s old feat.. but obviously just not quite.
Swapping between FoW and synergy was the painful bit, wanting Synergy up a turn earlier so that you are able to use Kaya towards the end of your beasts activations to get some use out of soothing song.
B.
Also 12" control area was sucky but fitting in a wilder can help alleviate that issue as also some more fury management.
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Post by Fudly on May 13, 2017 5:05:00 GMT
I always want a Scarsfell... I just wasn't sure how well it fits in this list. With the loss of Long Leash its hard to play it forward and Kaya and the Purebloods back. Stealth is _almost_ irrelevant; you have to have something to aim at, even if it's not your real target. But then, that's what Mannikins are for! But you're right; I think I'd rather have another spray and miss a few shots or have to boost to hit, than spend the 13 points on Argii essentially to improve my chances to hit. In the original Kaya2 list I had fewer beast points, so I didn't really see how I could squeeze another one in. I also like the assassination threat of 4 Purebloods, casting Wraithbane, Assault charging, and double-boosting their spray. Most casters are pretty safe if they camp a few, but there is _nowhere_ that it's safe for you to not camp. Stealth is irrelevant against sprays. You can target models with stealth now. You just automatically miss with ranged attacks if > 5" away.
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Post by ispyypsi on May 13, 2017 15:08:49 GMT
Hey havock I love hearing from dirty khador monst...I mean great people! Jokes aside I tried purebloods and I really dig deep reach sprays but it didn't take to much for my buddy to lose some mildly important guys before he caught on getting most of his stuff in good places or forcing bad trades for me. The big butttttttt here is we don't have much time so we play at 50 points. When my baby grows up in 18 years and I get more free time I'll report back with some 75 point games. Good luck dudes.
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Post by Havock on May 13, 2017 17:33:27 GMT
Hey havock I love hearing from dirty khador monst...I mean great people! Jokes aside I tried purebloods and I really dig deep reach sprays but it didn't take to much for my buddy to lose some mildly important guys before he caught on getting most of his stuff in good places or forcing bad trades for me. The big butttttttt here is we don't have much time so we play at 50 points. When my baby grows up in 18 years and I get more free time I'll report back with some 75 point games. Good luck dudes. Don't worry, the Empress loves you too you troublesome forest-inhabiting citizen.
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Post by sirk on May 13, 2017 18:13:17 GMT
I can see your point, but in my experience, when you try build the list down you are always short. For example: how do you expect to make purebloods effective in melee with synergy? how many other beasts do you need for that? And those have to be other expensive heavies or short threatening and under performing lights.
I really believe that in building Kaya3 balance synergy has been a design trap. Just the name and the memory of it in mkii was enough to believe it to be a caster defining spell, but between the spell nerf and, most of all, the poor choice of low costed beasts for circle the result is quite far from the expectations.
Kaya3 is a bit of everything. A bit of a ranged caster, thanks to reposition and fog of war, a bit of a melee thanks to synergy, a wanna be bit of assassination, thanks to pseudo acrobatic feat (that never manage to get near enough). I've tried several builds of her as soon as she got out, but none of them was worth it in my opinion.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on May 15, 2017 7:11:41 GMT
My recent outings with Kaya3 (no, not 10 games yet) I've been rocking a griffon-spam style of list:
Kaya3 Wilder 6 x Scarsfells 1 x Shadowhorn 1 x Feral 2 x Blackclads 2 x Sentry Stones
I gotta say it's really working well for me. The obvious question "why not Una?" is answered in one word: "Delivery".
Kaya delivers her army far better than Una2. Fog of war makes most gunlines cringe, and if the to-hit roll is skewed really high (hello Sloan) then you can feat with Fog of war for DEF 19 budgies. If you're getting shot and need to jam a bit, you can rush in and be DEF 17 in melee. Repo is also less situational than sprint (don't need to kill a model, so it's effective when your opponent is playing keep-away) which lets you get more use out of the griffon's dodge animus, really getting top value out of that high DEF number. Coming off a couple of months playing Legion, Kaya basically feels like a stronger version of Fyanna2 with access to better beasts.
Essentially the list almost pilots itself - the scarsfell is the perfect beast for a synergy caster - high SPD, 3 initials, stealth to help for delivery (a note on stealth in MKIII - there are a fortune of ways to ignore stealth for single models in MKIII, so may that I consider it almost useless on a heavy. For an 8-point light, however, the resources to remove stealth are just not worth it, making it a very useful rule for the budgies) and a budget price tag is absolutely your huckleberry. I'm busy painting up a second shadowhorn, so when he's ready him and a gorax will probably replace the Feral but that's all I'd change at this point.
-und_ed
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