vlad
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 53
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Post by vlad on Dec 24, 2018 13:11:36 GMT
I don't think Power Creep is a useful term when it comes to discussing...well anything really. The term is pretty vague at everyone seems to have a different definition. From my personal perspective it looks like newer casters are being given much bigger toolkits compared to legacy ones. A caster maybe used to have 2 or 3 things they did from the kinda 'standard list' of things a caster should do. They might have a damage buff, a defense buff and their feat is an armour buff. Or they would have a threat extender, upkeep removal and their feat was a damage buff. However if you look at someone like Anamag, she has: - damage buff - armour buff - upkeep removal - accuracy buff - threat extender - fury efficiency with Ritual Slaughter - Grievous Wounds Now i'm not saying Anamag is unbeatable, she's not. some people even think she is not actually very good in the meta, maybe that's the case. But it just seems like PP are saying 'lets just give them everything, why not! A caster is not good anymore unless they have 5 or 6 things they do'. I just feel like slapping a whole bunch of answers on a caster, combined with theme force's providing answers to the few things they are missing, just makes for a very homogeneous and unimaginative game in the end. I agree that Anamag might be a bit too much on the upper side of the power curve for my taste (and perhaps Iona as well, but I've yet to play with/against her enough yet). Yet after Anamag we got Sorscha3 and the Armored Corps. After Iona we'll be getting Garyth2, who also doesn't seem to be the next big thing to shift the meta.
I'd like for PP to achieve perfect balance with everything that goes into CID, but I don't really expect it to happen, as the game is too big to balance perfectly, especially when a model also needs to reflect the fluff in its rules. What I want from PP is to spare us the MkII Gaspy2s and Haley2s, triple teleports, beginning of Mk3 Karchev Mad Dog spam and Una2 Griffon spam and such, and most of all, to make un-competitive models viable competitive options. While not perfect, the CID process has so far succeeded in this respect, and I think PP deserves both our trust, as well as our cooperation to make it an even better process.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Dec 24, 2018 15:24:48 GMT
I don't think Power Creep is a useful term when it comes to discussing...well anything really. The term is pretty vague at everyone seems to have a different definition. From my personal perspective it looks like newer casters are being given much bigger toolkits compared to legacy ones. A caster maybe used to have 2 or 3 things they did from the kinda 'standard list' of things a caster should do. They might have a damage buff, a defense buff and their feat is an armour buff. Or they would have a threat extender, upkeep removal and their feat was a damage buff. However if you look at someone like Anamag, she has: - damage buff - armour buff - upkeep removal - accuracy buff - threat extender - fury efficiency with Ritual Slaughter - Grievous Wounds Now i'm not saying Anamag is unbeatable, she's not. some people even think she is not actually very good in the meta, maybe that's the case. But it just seems like PP are saying 'lets just give them everything, why not! A caster is not good anymore unless they have 5 or 6 things they do'. I just feel like slapping a whole bunch of answers on a caster, combined with theme force's providing answers to the few things they are missing, just makes for a very homogeneous and unimaginative game in the end. I agree that Anamag might be a bit too much on the upper side of the power curve for my taste (and perhaps Iona as well, but I've yet to play with/against her enough yet). Yet after Anamag we got Sorscha3 and the Armored Corps. After Iona we'll be getting Garyth2, who also doesn't seem to be the next big thing to shift the meta.
I'd like for PP to achieve perfect balance with everything that goes into CID, but I don't really expect it to happen, as the game is too big to balance perfectly, especially when a model also needs to reflect the fluff in its rules. What I want from PP is to spare us the MkII Gaspy2s and Haley2s, triple teleports, beginning of Mk3 Karchev Mad Dog spam and Una2 Griffon spam and such, and most of all, to make un-competitive models viable competitive options. While not perfect, the CID process has so far succeeded in this respect, and I think PP deserves both our trust, as well as our cooperation to make it an even better process.
You guys have both raised very good points, but that's just it. Only about a third of the people who post on the CID forums seem to have any real interest in or understanding of actual playtesting at all. One third just want to play with the new toys NOW NOW NOW, and the remaining third is, of course, the munchkins who just want Moar Power for their own factions, and sometimes they also want nerfs for everyone else.
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Post by sand20go on Dec 24, 2018 20:44:33 GMT
Powercreep - that the Victor and the Storm Raptor are the same point cost and that the Big Bird exists in a faction with Una2.
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vlad
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 53
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Post by vlad on Dec 24, 2018 21:48:26 GMT
Powercreep - that the Victor and the Storm Raptor are the same point cost and that the Big Bird exists in a faction with Una2. I'd give the bird some time to settle in the meta (and the meta to settle around it) before making a judgement about its power level.
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vlad
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 53
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Post by vlad on Dec 24, 2018 21:58:46 GMT
I understand the frustration of dealing with the strongly biased part of the CID community, as well as the frustration that may stem from the appearance that that part of the community is exerting an unjustly big influence on the process.
Reading the responses of the PP staff on the CID forums however, I'd say that they are not giving the same weight to the opinions of all players (in a good way), and that objective reporting is still valued most. I personally think that most of the balance issues coming out of the CID so far are not a result of listening to the players too much, but rather of making radical changes late in the CID cycle, not leaving enough time for proper testing.
Last but not least, if we as players want to make the CID process work, the only way to do that is to contribute with as-objective-as-possible opinions, and civilized discussions in the CID forums (I know, I know... but one can dream!). At times this might mean testing something and writing up reports, and at times it might mean identifying and calling out severely biased opinions and reports.
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Post by cainuslupus on Dec 24, 2018 22:22:52 GMT
I understand the frustration of dealing with the strongly biased part of the CID community, as well as the frustration that may stem from the appearance that that part of the community is exerting an unjustly big influence on the process.
Reading the responses of the PP staff on the CID forums however, I'd say that they are not giving the same weight to the opinions of all players (in a good way), and that objective reporting is still valued most. I personally think that most of the balance issues coming out of the CID so far are not a result of listening to the players too much, but rather of making radical changes late in the CID cycle, not leaving enough time for proper testing.
Last but not least, if we as players want to make the CID process work, the only way to do that is to contribute with as-objective-as-possible opinions, and civilized discussions in the CID forums (I know, I know... but one can dream!). At times this might mean testing something and writing up reports, and at times it might mean identifying and calling out severely biased opinions and reports.
It's really hard sometimes. All this hysteria about Choosen (that are just troll cavalry with different coat of paint) by people who don't understand math meant that reasonable voices about Anamag being caster great at everything and autoinclude were flooded. I don't know what happened in Tharn CiD but after reading Iona card I'm disgusted.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Dec 25, 2018 0:13:39 GMT
While I am sorry to hear that you've had negative reactions, you also go out and create content in a way that is seemingly deliberate in its controversial nature. While I don't support the idea that people should be extremely negative towards content creators they disagree with (I've had my own fair share of that on the creator side of things), I have noticed that you really like to hammer on the hobby side of things with slogans like "fighting the horde of unpainted grey models" and other somewhat incendiary comments in both your blog post and just website in general. Food for thought, if nothing else. I really enjoy some of your painting content and you have a beautiful Khador army - keep that up for sure! So, thanks for the feedback. I focus on hobby content because, let's face it, I'm not good enough at this game to write decent content about what you should put in your list or what the new hotness fresh out of CID is. I know I've had a few issues with some tongue in cheek references that didn't translate well to the written word, and I'm learning to adjust my writing style on that. But, also, part of the issue is that it is difficult to know where the line is between something that people can agree or disagree with (even if my opinion is in the minority), and something that is considered incendiary and offensive. For example, I legitimately had no idea that "fighting the grey plastic hordes" could be considered this problematic, as it's kind of a tongue in cheek reference to my habit of wanting to get my models all painted but then buying myself more models to paint as a reward when I do. Also, I'm kind of surprised because I pretty much borrowed that philosophy and that saying from a guy who paints GW stuff on youtube. So, I will consider maybe changing the wording there while keeping the spirit that this is a hobby focused area. Or, another example is something like painting requirements -- it was only six months ago that a painting requirement was there in an officially supported format and that I had attended an event with one and had fun along with dozens of other players, but it feels like saying that one likes having a format with a painting requirement now is basically heresy and I'm a jerk for saying that I'm going to miss it. Anyways, getting away from the question of how much people like or dislike my content or take issue with me personally, I kind of have a problem with people saying things like "Warmachine is a competitive game and isn't for casuals" and the like. I fear it's circular reasoning at best ("Warmachine is not for casuals because the community is hostile to casual play" is itself a statement which is kind of hostile towards casual play being made by a member of the community) and a self-fulfilling prophecy at worst. People (be it casuals, hobbyists, or competitive players) who see comments about how Warmachine isn't for them may start thinking that Warmachine isn't for them, and that contributes to them leaving the game. This has now gotten to be more of an issue because a certain other game company has decided that actually producing decent products that people want to buy is a good business strategy, so Warmachine isn't the only game in town anymore. And, if all the casual players leave and the remainder are competitive players who are hostile towards casual play, then the prophecy comes true. This would be an issue regardless of which type of player is feeling left out, but I feel like it's especially problematic when the more casual players leave because they tend to be the ones most likely to volunteer to play battlebox games against new players and the like. I'm not all doom and gloom just because a few staffers quit or because they are selling mystery boxes, but having talked to a few people who used to play the game and don't play anymore, this is my biggest concern for the long-term health of the game. I feel like Warmachine is best and PP's bottom line is best when we have all types of players. But, I've also talked to a number of people who were positive influences on the community and who are feeling that either the game itself or parts of the community have left them behind -- and more people than I would expect to move on from the game based on attrition alone. Now, whether these people have a point or not in their frustrations over things like CID or whatever is debatable, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of players have been made to feel like the game or the community isn't for them anymore. The number of people I know who own models and don't play with them anymore because they feel either the game has gotten too bloated and complex, or they feel lost when they sit down to play, or they feel that the Warmachine community (both locally and globally) doesn't support their style of play, or they're just sick and tired about hearing all the negativity online or negativity in person about how their stuff is OP and their opponent's netlist is totally fair and balanced, is more than I'm really comfortable with. I think it's great to see that people are doing initiatives like the Chain Attack thing, and I know I've recently painted a second battlebox and got some demos scheduled in the new year with the hope of rebuilding the community at my nearest LGS. I just fear that a facebook group where we don't be jerks to each other like in every other corner of the Warmachine internet may not be enough without some introspection about what we as a community could have done better over the past couple years (because, let's face it, we all know how badly the Mk.III launch was botched; there is no point in dwelling on something that happened two and a half years ago, or looking back on Mk.II with rose-coloured glasses and complaining about how PP changed it and now it sucks. But we don't help ourselves when we do things like loudly talk about how X is OP bullshit and Y is terrible within earshot of potential new players) and should be doing now to fix things.
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Post by frumiousbandersnatch on Dec 25, 2018 7:34:30 GMT
Powercreep - that the Victor and the Storm Raptor are the same point cost and that the Big Bird exists in a faction with Una2. Just wait until you get a look at the Judicator! The Victor is shit and no one really cares about the SR tbqh. It's good, but not the thing to worry about from Tharn CID.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Dec 25, 2018 9:28:31 GMT
I don't know what happened in Tharn CiD but after reading Iona card I'm disgusted. I think my favorite part of Iona’s release were the handful of players complaining about how terrible she was because PP nerfed her Dodge aura from her final CID version.
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Post by cainuslupus on Dec 25, 2018 10:11:07 GMT
I don't know what happened in Tharn CiD but after reading Iona card I'm disgusted. I think my favorite part of Iona’s release were the handful of players complaining about how terrible she was because PP nerfed her Dodge aura from her final CID version. I know great Circle player. And I mean international WTC level great. He told me first that Iona is OP and he doesn't know what the hell they're thinking at PP. I didn't knew because I stopped following CiD to not get burned out and didn't care. Then I've looked at battle reports and finaly forced myself to read Tharn stuff. It screams "crunch" so hard it's pathetic. Cmd 9, of course, because she is the greatest leader in the fluff... Sorry, what fluff, lol, she needs larger footprint with dodge, because they "nerfed" her to not having Fyanna2 Feat as passive. Sorry, Fyanna2 is Fury6, Iona has Fury 7, she is not only great warrior but awesome at magic, gotta crunch those numbers! Then look at Feat and WTF it is? It's Kryssa1, Saeryn1 and Callandra Feats in one. But only for Tharns :sad-face: Honestly, it's Una2 all over again, or Bradigus in MK2. And Bradigus was last money grab from PP, last a$$hole move to clear magazines before nerfing him in MK3. I don't believe it's coincidence. Kharchev might've been, Caine2 probably was, Una2 wasn't and this is just pathetic cash grab IMHO. And I believe it's bad sign also. Please don't tell me to "git gud", I'm leaving already. Before that though I wish you all Merry Christmas and Wonderful New Year!
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Post by zwergenkrieger on Dec 25, 2018 21:53:15 GMT
No power creep?
Well, they nerved Madrak2 surving through entire armies just to give Skorne something even better with Makeda3, where not only the warlock but Molik Karn and every single Bronzeback is able to surf through entire armies.
Can anybody understand what happened there? Why do they nerv something to give it to others?
On the other hand IMO Locke is an example of a well executed toolbox caster. She doesn't seem to be overpowered, her feat is no easy button. She is fun to play with and against. Therefore I think that pp is able to create good rules and interesting models/units.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Dec 26, 2018 0:35:09 GMT
No power creep? Well, they nerved Madrak2 surving through entire armies just to give Skorne something even better with Makeda3, where not only the warlock but Molik Karn and every single Bronzeback is able to surf through entire armies. Can anybody understand what happened there? Why do they nerv something to give it to others? On the other hand IMO Locke is an example of a well executed toolbox caster. She doesn't seem to be overpowered, her feat is no easy button. She is fun to play with and against. Therefore I think that pp is able to create good rules and interesting models/units. Nothing in Makeda's list except Makeda can surf (and that only on feat turn). And the problem with Madrak wasn't that he had berserk/overtake, it was that he could surf through an army, kill a colossal at the end (because he gained fury when he berserk-killed stuff), then sit there being borderline unkillable between transfers and Grim Salvation. The resemblance to Makeda is passing at best.
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bacon
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
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Post by bacon on Dec 26, 2018 2:14:27 GMT
No power creep? Well, they nerved Madrak2 surving through entire armies just to give Skorne something even better with Makeda3, where not only the warlock but Molik Karn and every single Bronzeback is able to surf through entire armies. Can anybody understand what happened there? Why do they nerv something to give it to others? On the other hand IMO Locke is an example of a well executed toolbox caster. She doesn't seem to be overpowered, her feat is no easy button. She is fun to play with and against. Therefore I think that pp is able to create good rules and interesting models/units. Wait what feat are you reading? Neither molik karn nor bronze backs can surf on feat turn. Makeda is the only model in that list who can and unlike Madrak she can't go much above 7 fury (I think 9 is the highest you can get with her by feating,killing her charge target, and killing one or more models with blood boon) because she doesn't get free attacks and must spend fury to buy more. Compare this to madrak who can gain fury because he gets free attacks via berserk, overtake through a huge chunk of your opponents army, and then being unkillable because hes camping 15+ fury and surrounded by warrior models for grim salvation. Do you see how this is different now? In relation to the greater thread I think a lot of this doom and gloom is caused by the community itself. Within this thread we've had people complain about things other factions have that were either taken away or is weaker in their own army, not understanding the important distinctions between their rules and the context of the army in which they take place. I really wish people would take a chill pill and see the bigger picture. Yes some models like anamag and iona probably came out of cid overtuned, but honestly I recall facing a lot worse before in both earlier this edition and mk2. When I started warmachine in mk 2 coming from warhammer I was assured this was the best balanced, most competitive wargame on the market. And so it was, and despite the rocky start, mk3 is shaping up to be even better balanced than mk 2 was so I have to ask, what changed?
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Post by Charistoph on Dec 26, 2018 5:28:42 GMT
On Feat, Makeda3 can basically keep herself or any model in their Battlegroup going provided they have a kill with every swing. Her feat allows her to take away Fury from other models in her Battlegroup or add Fury to herself. Add in that Makeda has Overtake and Karn has Side Step, they can do a significant amount of removal in close quarters.
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Post by mcdermott on Dec 26, 2018 7:22:16 GMT
So can Caine 1 on feat
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