|
Post by cygnarstronk on Dec 21, 2018 20:10:20 GMT
You can't really invest much in a game full of power creeping CID and with a meta shifting every 3 months. Thwy made cloudwallss unsable with the last 2 CIDs (cornucopia and mercs), that is absurd
|
|
bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
|
Post by bundeez on Dec 21, 2018 21:43:48 GMT
Also you should not ask why some people of PP are quiting. If they feel no need to tell us. It should be fine for you. Maybe the leaving people have their personal reasons which are simply not of our interest. Sometimes it is that easy. I completely understand and respect that. Had it only been 1 person, or at a time where people are not already doubting in PP, I would not second guess it even for a second. But you gotta admit it smells fishy, right? As if some big dispute has happend recently or something like that. They could have gotten another job, or revealed they got fired, or quit because they got tired of the CID/boss/game whatever. But no. No explanaition. No reason. 10 years in the company; Bye! Fishy
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on Dec 21, 2018 23:00:12 GMT
Also you should not ask why some people of PP are quiting. If they feel no need to tell us. It should be fine for you. Maybe the leaving people have their personal reasons which are simply not of our interest. Sometimes it is that easy. I completely understand and respect that. Had it only been 1 person, or at a time where people are not already doubting in PP, I would not second guess it even for a second. But you gotta admit it smells fishy, right? As if some big dispute has happend recently or something like that. They could have gotten another job, or revealed they got fired, or quit because they got tired of the CID/boss/game whatever. But no. No explanaition. No reason. 10 years in the company; Bye! Fishy I agree. Too small a company with too much visability of key staffers who are leaving "in mass" for a company with a functioning MarCom department NOT to get out a statement. Again, see above.
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on Dec 21, 2018 23:02:37 GMT
But no one asks me to go out and recruit Golfers, teach them the game, include them in my foursome, organize (for free) tournaments. etc. etc. etc. Companies in the industry contribute to the growth of the game because it is GOOD for their bottom line. Golf is really a bad example, as it is a game that you can enjoy completely on your own. Basketball or Soccer would be a better example, as they actually require interacting with other players to set up a community to play. I guess why I think it works as an analogy (and again, it isn't perfect) is that Golf has a high cost of entry and a high learning curve. Growing that game is HARD (and it hasn't been going well for Golf as an industry). But below someone mentioned tennis which is actually a really good example since it also has a steep learning curve and a fairly high cost of entry.
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 21, 2018 23:38:25 GMT
The only reason people play golf is for business networking and people who wants to appear rich
|
|
|
Post by netdragon on Dec 22, 2018 0:03:57 GMT
Cygnar player here.
CID has been a disaster for Cygnar. The first one CID ever was great until PP started to nerf existing miniatures. Instead of testing new things, PP had killed all the excitement by starting a Haley2 nerf war. H2 surely needed a nerf, but bundling it with the CID of new stuff just plain sucked, and then came the rest of the nerfs. Then Cygnar stuff started to be nerfed in every CID cycle, sometimes for no reason at all. It was very frustrating, I actually left the game months ago after the N3 nerf, and I don't even play N3.
Then there's PP's wrong understanding of the "Design Space" concept. You see, "design space" is designing something leaving space for future designs; PP does exactly the opposite: they nerf stuff to make room for the new stuff. Nerfing the Hunter's Advanced Deployment? that's just because the trencher juionr now has a +2 RNG spell.
Finally, there's the direction where they are taking the game. Every CDI as been about heavy infantry themes. Maybe their marketing person kept hearing about how players get into the game because of the "large, shiny armies" and decided that warmachine needs to be BIG. But BIG WARMACHINE is slow, expensive and rather boring in my opinion. The memorization and investment (monetary and otherwise) is not worthy at then end where the whole industry is moving towards smaller, faster and simpler designs.
|
|
|
Post by netdragon on Dec 22, 2018 0:07:53 GMT
Also, this is a product. If the metas are dying is not the community's fault.
It's their product, it's PP who should do their work with the LGSs to promote the game properly. LGSs that are still pissed about all the MK2 product cold in their shelves...
|
|
|
Post by oncomingstorm on Dec 22, 2018 0:39:29 GMT
IMO, PP has a great product in warmachine, and it's gotten that way largely because they've been listening to the top 2% of players, the people who actually know balance well enough, and care about the health of the game enough, to contribute to it's development. Listening to casual players about balance is a terrible idea (and I'm not going to rehash that particular debate), and the game is not oriented towards a casual audience, both because the community is not casual friendly, and because the rules are very all-or-nothing, and do not lend themselves to fun casual play. Most of the 'casual' games I've seen end up being more of a stomp than any competitive game, because the core game rules encourage and allow this (and before anyone says anything, the game has always been like this). I also strongly disagree about the CID leadipowercreep. with a few notable exceptions (one in particular I'll get to later), the things coming out of CID have not been significantly stronger than the strongest things Pre-CID. Factions have gotten stronger through CID, but largely because they were underperforming pre-CID. That being said, their marketing and communications really, really sucks. They lost a ton of players over the Mk3 release (which was terrible), and they lost more players over the way the initial nerf/buff cycle was handled (everything is fine, everything is fine, everything i-NERF!), and they lost still more players with the poor handling of the theme releases. They shuttered the PG program (possibly legally necessary, the lawyers I know are divided on the issue, so they probably made the safe call), and they've really done nothing to sell their product to a broader audience. I do agree that most of their communication lately has been aimed at a select portion of their current audience, and I've seen nothing in the way of concerted marketing aimed at bringing new players in. And without PGers, it's really a crapshoot whether you've got people in your meta that are willing to sell the game for PP (if you even have a meta at all - and without marketing, how are new metas going to get started?) Add in the dismissive way the devs talk to players sometimes (some of them have really weird personal biases about the game), and the lack of communication when worrying things start happening (devs leaving, massive inventory sales, and a product coming out that looks a hell of a lot like Warhammer: End Times), and it's a real problem. *The one exception I'm talking about is the way that they've been releasing horribly pushed huge based models. I get that they're a tough balancing act (they're expensive models, so if they're not competitive people will just skip 'em, especially if they're BAHI), but holy shit, some of the stuff they've pushed out recently is extremely aggressive, and seems clearly oriented towards making the new model a must have for competitive play. netdragon - I'm gonna disagree with you, both in terms of CID being power creep, and on the necessity/manner of the Cygnar nerfs. Every one of those nerfs (save Haley1) was needed, and was preceded by a long period of cygnar wrecking shit at large events with said models. Storm Lances were literally nerfed because Cygnar players kept saying 'I won't play this theme, storm lances do it better'. Haley2 wasn't even in CID, so I don't see how she derailed it (also, she was, again, the quintessential S-tier caster for most of Mk2 and the start of Mk3). Nemo3 was a caster who won games without even trying, unless specifically countered. None of these models were good for the health of the game, and it's a damn good thing they were nerfed (and all of them are still perfectly playable, too).
|
|
|
Post by netdragon on Dec 22, 2018 0:47:02 GMT
netdragon - I'm gonna disagree with you, both in terms of CID being power creep, and on the necessity/manner of the Cygnar nerfs. Every one of those nerfs (save Haley1) was needed, and was preceded by a long period of cygnar wrecking shit at large events with said models. Storm Lances were literally nerfed because Cygnar players kept saying 'I won't play this theme, storm lances do it better'. Haley2 wasn't even in CID, so I don't see how she derailed it (also, she was, again, the quintessential S-tier caster for most of Mk2 and the start of Mk3). Nemo3 was a caster who won games without even trying, unless specifically countered. None of these models were good for the health of the game, and it's a damn good thing they were nerfed (and all of them are still perfectly playable, too).
I'm not saying that they didn't need the nerfs. What I'm saying is that the frequency of the nerfs - almost literally every CID - really kills any excitement of investing into Cygnar. Also, the trencher's CID went from "hey, let's look at all the new models" to "stop nerfing my stuff!"; as a commuinications and even marketing event (and EVERYTHING that a company does publicly is a markeitng event), it was handled horribly in my opinion.
|
|
|
Post by oncomingstorm on Dec 22, 2018 0:56:31 GMT
netdragon - I'm gonna disagree with you, both in terms of CID being power creep, and on the necessity/manner of the Cygnar nerfs. Every one of those nerfs (save Haley1) was needed, and was preceded by a long period of cygnar wrecking shit at large events with said models. Storm Lances were literally nerfed because Cygnar players kept saying 'I won't play this theme, storm lances do it better'. Haley2 wasn't even in CID, so I don't see how she derailed it (also, she was, again, the quintessential S-tier caster for most of Mk2 and the start of Mk3). Nemo3 was a caster who won games without even trying, unless specifically countered. None of these models were good for the health of the game, and it's a damn good thing they were nerfed (and all of them are still perfectly playable, too).
I'm not saying that they didn't need the nerfs. What I'm saying is that the frequency of the nerfs - almost literally every CID - really kills any excitement of investing into Cygnar. Also, the trencher's CID went from "hey, let's look at all the new models" to "stop nerfing my stuff!"; as a commuinications and even marketing event (and EVERYTHING that a company does publicly is a markeitng event), it was handled horribly in my opinion.
They nerfed two models (3 if you count the laddermore sidegrade). They released 8 or so new models/kits, and they buffed a good 8 or so more (and I'm being conservative here). Then they buffed gun mages. Then, months later, they nerfed Nemo3. Let's not be hyperbolic about the scale or frequency of the nerfs. Nerfs for cygnar (specifically Nemo3) were a topic in every CID because Nemo3 was the meta's apex predator for a good 8 months. You literally could not design a competitive list pair without having a plan for him. That's not the same as having Cygnar nerfs in 'every CID'. Also, how exactly would you have liked them to have released the nerfs? I'm not really seeing a good way of nerfing models that doesn't 'reduce excitement in faction'. And in terms of marketing...having horribly overpowered meta-bending models and lists continue to exist for longer than they need to (to determine that the nerfs are in fact needed) is going to do more to kill excitement for the game (for players of the other 12 factions) than the nerfs themselves.
|
|
|
Post by netdragon on Dec 22, 2018 1:04:52 GMT
Nerfs: Haley2 Storm Lances Hunter Nemo3 Electroleaps The Blockhouse (nerfed and then fixed to what the community said was ok in CID)
Not including the Heavy Metal theme nerf, or Caine2's. BTW, the Heavy Metal theme - as a theme - is a total mess.
I would have liked to have a Cygnar CID, revise the existing stuff; and then do the new stuff. You'd say "Oh, but PP doesn't have time to do 2 CIDs per faction", And I'll tell you, "they had +3 years for MK3"...
|
|
bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
|
Post by bundeez on Dec 22, 2018 2:04:39 GMT
I agree with netdragon somewhat: CID does not compensate or "fix" mk3 in any way: - it takes waaay to long for your faction to enter CID and get an update. I play Trollbloods which got Northkin last fall. Currently CID looks like "X" the next 2 months until Infernals kick in until summer. That's 2(!) whole years with no new Trollbloods release. 2 ******* years! With the meta changing every 3-4 monts, that's just too damn slow. Mk2 at least gave everyone "something" every 6-9th month. - CID feels to me like a bad excuse to fix all the errors they made during the mk3 creation. Maybe it's just me.. - Only the very dedicated players want to contribute to CID: I play 0-2 games a week, none of which I want to be an "experiment" for PP to evaluate stuff from. If they really want quality playtesters, then actually hire a bunch of people to do it. Imo it's way more efficient: - you get rid of negative people on the forums which leads to wasted work hours to solve what is good feedback and what is not - you can get way more non-biased battlereports - balance it enough for people to actually buy it, but not draw into the powercreep curse.
|
|
|
Post by oncomingstorm on Dec 22, 2018 3:04:25 GMT
I agree with netdragon somewhat: CID does not compensate or "fix" mk3 in any way: - it takes waaay to long for your faction to enter CID and get an update. I play Trollbloods which got Northkin last fall. Currently CID looks like "X" the next 2 months until Infernals kick in until summer. That's 2(!) whole years with no new Trollbloods release. 2 ******* years! With the meta changing every 3-4 monts, that's just too damn slow. Mk2 at least gave everyone "something" every 6-9th month. - CID feels to me like a bad excuse to fix all the errors they made during the mk3 creation. Maybe it's just me.. - Only the very dedicated players want to contribute to CID: I play 0-2 games a week, none of which I want to be an "experiment" for PP to evaluate stuff from. If they really want quality playtesters, then actually hire a bunch of people to do it. Imo it's way more efficient: - you get rid of negative people on the forums which leads to wasted work hours to solve what is good feedback and what is not - you can get way more non-biased battlereports - balance it enough for people to actually buy it, but not draw into the powercreep curse. Oh, I completely agree. CID is a slow, flawed process, and at the current rate of progress it's going to take 6-7 years to hit all of the models that need to get hit. They're weirdly resistant to implementing broad based changes, even when they are clearly intending to do so over time (see also: Colossals/Gargs, Characters-in-themes, etc). About 50% of the models in any given faction need a CID (with a few exceptions), and at the current rate of progress (which seems to be slowing down - we've had 4 CIDs since the 3 month summer break, and we likely will only see 2 more before Infernals) they won't get attention any time soon. Especially if they end up devoting a bunch of time to testing RiotQuest. That being said, it's significantly better than nothing. And I've yet to see a nerf come out of CID that comes anywhere close to the overnerfing of Una2/scarsfells, or Mad Dogs/Karchev.
|
|
|
Post by Charistoph on Dec 22, 2018 4:24:36 GMT
Golf is really a bad example, as it is a game that you can enjoy completely on your own. Basketball or Soccer would be a better example, as they actually require interacting with other players to set up a community to play. I guess why I think it works as an analogy (and again, it isn't perfect) is that Golf has a high cost of entry and a high learning curve. Growing that game is HARD (and it hasn't been going well for Golf as an industry). But below someone mentioned tennis which is actually a really good example since it also has a steep learning curve and a fairly high cost of entry. Golf is still a solitary game, even when you are with a group. It's only you and the ball in the interaction. WMH requires interactions with other players. That's the flaw in the analogy. You are correct as to the expense and the skill curve, though. I tried a front 9 once, and I think I hit 72, and two holes I was told to stop trying at 10. But it is designed to be expensive and exclusive, unlike WMH. It is set up to be an elite's game. Tennis really isn't that expensive to get in to, though it can be expensive if you go after every bell and whistle and build your own court. There is a skill curve to it, I agree. I did have fun playing it, but not quite as much as racquetball (till I blew my knee out). I could never quite get my over-handed serve quite right. I guess muscles trained for wrestling don't work well for that.
|
|
|
Post by mcdermott on Dec 22, 2018 5:44:49 GMT
I agree with netdragon somewhat: CID does not compensate or "fix" mk3 in any way: - it takes waaay to long for your faction to enter CID and get an update. I play Trollbloods which got Northkin last fall. Currently CID looks like "X" the next 2 months until Infernals kick in until summer. That's 2(!) whole years with no new Trollbloods release. 2 ******* years! With the meta changing every 3-4 monts, that's just too damn slow. Mk2 at least gave everyone "something" every 6-9th month. As opposed to mk2, where they just didnt fix things until the once a year rules release that put counter models into play....maybe.
|
|