Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jan 29, 2019 19:28:49 GMT
They follow the money, and the money is in 40k. Notice they don't really cover anything else? They even stopped developing their own miniature line even after a pretty successful crowd funding campaign
Not to mention that their really good WM/H content creators left and were never replaced (Ash, Owen, and Dan)
I don't think people realize just how large the gap between GW games and the rest really is. If GW has customers in the millions, then PP and the rest don't even scratch 10% of that (I once saw an estimate that verily broke 100,000 WM/H players world wide)
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Post by Kriegsspiele on Jan 29, 2019 19:32:19 GMT
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jan 29, 2019 19:40:58 GMT
yup, I think shooting for GW growth is okay, but the constant comparison is self defeating.
PP carved a niche that has allowed them to operate for nearly 20 years, and I think they need to concentrate on that without following the market leader (and taking the huge risk of falling short)
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Post by sand20go on Jan 30, 2019 6:07:02 GMT
THAT is some damm good jank. And it paying a 3% dividend. Gotta call my guy
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Post by sand20go on Feb 23, 2019 19:56:56 GMT
Sorry a bit of a necro thread but reading this it brought this thread to mind.... partyfoulwmh.com/wp/favourable-trading-guest-author-charles-soong/A) This is well written and a great guide to thinking about the game in this way. Kudos and absolutely no criticism intended. B) However, think about this from a casual place. Being able to caculate and anticipate all of these threat ranges and this "complex chess" really is one (the?) way to "git good". A good question related to this thread is whether any game system can exist like this and grow. Think about how many models he understands their threat ranges, their expected output/stat line and thus figures out the trade....alll while on a 60 minute clock. It is frankly daunting and f'ing impressive....and likely the result of playing hundreds (thousands?) of games while focusing on these 2 aspects (threat range and expected output).
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Post by LoS Jaden on Feb 24, 2019 3:00:03 GMT
Sorry a bit of a necro thread but reading this it brought this thread to mind.... partyfoulwmh.com/wp/favourable-trading-guest-author-charles-soong/A) This is well written and a great guide to thinking about the game in this way. Kudos and absolutely no criticism intended. B) However, think about this from a casual place. Being able to caculate and anticipate all of these threat ranges and this "complex chess" really is one (the?) way to "git good". A good question related to this thread is whether any game system can exist like this and grow. Think about how many models he understands their threat ranges, their expected output/stat line and thus figures out the trade....alll while on a 60 minute clock. It is frankly daunting and f'ing impressive....and likely the result of playing hundreds (thousands?) of games while focusing on these 2 aspects (threat range and expected output). Yup that's pretty much what high level play is like. It's an intense mental high.
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Post by NephMakes on Feb 24, 2019 18:05:59 GMT
Being able to caculate and anticipate all of these threat ranges and this "complex chess" really is one (the?) way to "git good". A good question related to this thread is whether any game system can exist like this and grow. Think about how many models he understands... Doesn't Dota 2 have a similarly steep learning curve? And it's the most-played game on Steam. So I don't think it's a dealbreaker. But it probably helps that Dota 2 is free to play, lets you find games easily and quickly from a large pool of players, and only lasts 20-40 min per match.
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Post by sand20go on Feb 24, 2019 18:58:28 GMT
Being able to caculate and anticipate all of these threat ranges and this "complex chess" really is one (the?) way to "git good". A good question related to this thread is whether any game system can exist like this and grow. Think about how many models he understands... Doesn't Dota 2 have a similarly steep learning curve? And it's the most-played game on Steam. So I don't think it's a dealbreaker. But it probably helps that Dota 2 is free to play, lets you find games easily and quickly from a large pool of players, and only lasts 20-40 min per match.
Free and quick would be different than WM/H ;-) I don't play DOTA so I am not able to opine but the other key thing is ranking/seeding - helping better ensure competitive balance.
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Feb 24, 2019 20:38:45 GMT
Doesn't Dota 2 have a similarly steep learning curve? And it's the most-played game on Steam. So I don't think it's a dealbreaker. But it probably helps that Dota 2 is free to play, lets you find games easily and quickly from a large pool of players, and only lasts 20-40 min per match.
Free and quick would be different than WM/H ;-) I don't play DOTA so I am not able to opine but the other key thing is ranking/seeding - helping better ensure competitive balance. Emphasis on quick. A game like DOTA can exist and do well with a steep learning curve because its quick, and you are, largely, because of an ELO, normally playing against people at or around your capability level. So even though it does have a learning curve, it's no where near as intricate, or as unforgiving as wmh, and even when you do screw up and loose hard, it's fine, because the game takes minutes vs hours with wmh and in 2 minutes after playing the last game you can play another. Also, no models, or painting and down time for hobby (not that it's high priority for a lot of the WMH community, but I'm sure that it does affect some)
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Post by Charistoph on Feb 24, 2019 21:22:26 GMT
Being able to caculate and anticipate all of these threat ranges and this "complex chess" really is one (the?) way to "git good". A good question related to this thread is whether any game system can exist like this and grow. Think about how many models he understands... Doesn't Dota 2 have a similarly steep learning curve? And it's the most-played game on Steam. So I don't think it's a dealbreaker. But it probably helps that Dota 2 is free to play, lets you find games easily and quickly from a large pool of players, and only lasts 20-40 min per match.
Free being a relative term. You still have to purchase the system to run the game on. It may seem like nit-picking, but since building computers is one of my other hobbies, I know it isn't terribly cheap. To be fair, the system can be used for other purposes, unlike WarmaHorde models, but simply put, DotA 2 is only has free rules and models, you still need to buy the table and terrain.
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Post by cainuslupus on Feb 25, 2019 0:34:30 GMT
Doesn't Dota 2 have a similarly steep learning curve? And it's the most-played game on Steam. So I don't think it's a dealbreaker. But it probably helps that Dota 2 is free to play, lets you find games easily and quickly from a large pool of players, and only lasts 20-40 min per match.
Free being a relative term. You still have to purchase the system to run the game on. It may seem like nit-picking, but since building computers is one of my other hobbies, I know it isn't terribly cheap. To be fair, the system can be used for other purposes, unlike WarmaHorde models, but simply put, DotA 2 is only has free rules and models, you still need to buy the table and terrain. Last time I checked DotA2 worked flawlesly on my old Core2Duo 2.3 Ghz GF 9600 GT (32 bit). Really, let's be realistic here, it's not Crysis (and I mean old Crysis here), you can run it on shitty second hand laptop sooo... What's your point?
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Post by Charistoph on Feb 25, 2019 1:41:13 GMT
Free being a relative term. You still have to purchase the system to run the game on. It may seem like nit-picking, but since building computers is one of my other hobbies, I know it isn't terribly cheap. To be fair, the system can be used for other purposes, unlike WarmaHorde models, but simply put, DotA 2 is only has free rules and models, you still need to buy the table and terrain. Last time I checked DotA2 worked flawlesly on my old Core2Duo 2.3 Ghz GF 9600 GT (32 bit). Really, let's be realistic here, it's not Crysis (and I mean old Crysis here), you can run it on shitty second hand laptop sooo... What's your point? Computers are more expensive than most model kits is all, so even a "free" game has that cost attached to it.
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Feb 25, 2019 2:33:08 GMT
my 1080ti, 32gb of ram, dual monitors, Intel i7 coffee lake, and a 512 NVmE, with 1tb of drive space on SSDs still cost less than my cygnar pair, definitely my circle pair. I mean, if dota 2 is the benchmark, I think the cost factor is pretty even, or at least even enough to not make it a consideration in the comparison.
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Post by Charistoph on Feb 25, 2019 4:02:26 GMT
my 1080ti, 32gb of ram, dual monitors, Intel i7 coffee lake, and a 512 NVmE, with 1tb of drive space on SSDs still cost less than my cygnar pair, definitely my circle pair. I mean, if dota 2 is the benchmark, I think the cost factor is pretty even, or at least even enough to not make it a consideration in the comparison. But still more than a Colossal kit. So, again, you aren't charged for getting the game itself or to play it, just the support structure for it does have a noticeable cost associated with it.
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Post by tjhairball on Feb 25, 2019 6:16:19 GMT
my 1080ti, 32gb of ram, dual monitors, Intel i7 coffee lake, and a 512 NVmE, with 1tb of drive space on SSDs still cost less than my cygnar pair, definitely my circle pair. I mean, if dota 2 is the benchmark, I think the cost factor is pretty even, or at least even enough to not make it a consideration in the comparison. Yeah. But, as mentioned, you can use that rig for any other computer game, pretty much. Dota 2 and League of Legends, for example, are pretty similar games, and if Dota 2 gets wrecked in a massive update patch while League of Legends goes through a major upsurge, you can just switch over.
Basically, being a computer gamer costs as much as having one specific miniatures game, but that's unlocking a lot of other options than just the one game. If you want to switch off between playing different miniatures games, the cost explodes in a hurry.
You can't easily take your WMH minis and go play a WH40K game with them with all the WH40K players. The little resin, plastic, and metal toys you've invested time, money, and paint into are just not very flexible entertainment devices like that. You might find some WH40K players willing to let you proxy them as an appropriate set of WH40K look-alikes, but neither WMH play nor WH40K play scenes really encourage taking an entirely different game's set of minis to the table. Tournaments are right out.
You're pretty much locked in - your choices for playing with WMH minis with other people basically boil down to (A) play WMH with them, (B) invent your own game to play with them, (C) use them as proxies in an entirely different game, or (D) find some sort of GURPS of miniatures gaming that will let you take whatever minis you like and mush them together into a single system. I know some guys who have decided the solution is (B+D) and have a lot of WMH minis sitting on their shelves.
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