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Post by sand20go on Dec 18, 2018 21:47:28 GMT
And A+B+C is why I worry about PP. As the game CONTINUES to add models, factions, theme benefits and rules it is ever harder to understand and account for everything going on. You don't need tout remember everything. You just need to ask your opponent what his spell does when he casts it. Stop blaming PP for your lazyness. You need to keep in mind what it does 45 minutes later and which of identical looking crabbits it went on.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Dec 18, 2018 21:49:34 GMT
Does your opponent not put down markers? You don't have to remember anything if they mark it. Just ask them what the marker is and they have to explain it to you. If they don't put down a marker, it never happened.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Dec 18, 2018 21:49:40 GMT
You don't need tout remember everything. You just need to ask your opponent what his spell does when he casts it. Stop blaming PP for your lazyness. You need to keep in mind what it does 45 minutes later and which of identical looking crabbits it went on.
No you don't. It should be marked at all times, so no remembering which crabbit. And if you don't remember what it does 45 min later, ask again. Heck, ask every 5 minutes just to be safe.
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Post by netdragon on Dec 18, 2018 22:13:21 GMT
I understand where the original post comes from, the amount of Memory RAM that you need to play a 75+theme game is astounding, at least for me to consider it "fun".
You need to remember at all times what your things do and what your opponent things do. Just the whole "tell me your TOTAL charge range" is perplexing with all the modifiers armies might have, not including spell and feats' powerful mechanics.
The bussines model comment I guess comes from the fact that PP has pushed bigger and bigger army sizes every edition. The original game design was not meant for the actual 90-100 pts armies and the number of individual miniatures it can include, let alone miniatures with 4-10 special abilities BESIDES their main stats. The original MK1 standard game was for 500 pts, which later was increased to 750 pts because epic warcasters and character warjacks were more expensive (warnouns actually cost points back then). With free casters, more relative warjackpoints and free models from themes, the game has blown up to proportions that were not part of the original design. This is why games like 40k abstract the rules for units, for example.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Dec 18, 2018 22:31:39 GMT
I cannot believe this. So, the guy is losing right? The one hope he has to send this game is for the opponent to make a crucial mistake, which in fact happens, and you all think he's a nobhead for taking advantage of it? All this talk about playing the game through to the end and learning more from that, it just doesn't apply here. The game was in the bag, and then giftwrapped and given away. At least that's how I read it. What more was there to learn? Edit: If there's one thing I learned from situations like this it's to never give up untill it's a 100% over. Because these things happen all the time. Lucky win? Sure. But you can't accuse such a winner of not playing it through to the end. Quite the opposite in fact. On the other hand, I like my opponents to play games at the Master's level, and players that constantly win Masters don't win on gotchas. If my opponent forgets I have Countercharge I'll remind him before he sets down a model, because people in Masters don't forget those things. The benefit I get from doing this is that I very quickly learn not to rely on cheap tricks to win games because I'm respecting my opponents intellect. Clubbing baby seals over the head is just an empty victory. But people that win masters also forget stuff, just like everybody else. Maybe not as often, but every now and then, they're still human after all. Still a loss, it's how you deal with it that determines how empty it was. [Edit: I think the comparison to clubbing a babyseal is way off. They opponent was losing, and then handed an out. Which he took. That's all there is to it, no babyseals were butchered here /edit] Attentionspan is a skill too, and what I started out saying is that marking someone as a nob (first two pages of this thread) for cashing in on someones lack thereoff is not a very pleasant thing to do. Having said that I wouldn't like losing like that, and like you I usually ask my opponents whether they are sure when they are entering such an endeavour (and often get mauled afterwards by an insane stroke of luck on their part because dice). As for having nothing but a "gotcha" and admitting to that; futile is it should be it did net him the game :') so at the time it was the perfect thing to have. Id rather lose like that then get bend during the rock-paper-scissors phase that plagues steamroller (after which you usually have to resort to a "gotcha").
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Dec 18, 2018 22:37:08 GMT
I understand where the original post comes from, the amount of Memory RAM that you need to play a 75+theme game is astounding, at least for me to consider it "fun". You need to remember at all times what your things do and what your opponent things do. Just the whole "tell me your TOTAL charge range" is perplexing with all the modifiers armies might have, not including spell and feats' powerful mechanics. The bussines model comment I guess comes from the fact that PP has pushed bigger and bigger army sizes every edition. The original game design was not meant for the actual 90-100 pts armies and the number of individual miniatures it can include, let alone miniatures with 4-10 special abilities BESIDES their main stats. The original MK1 standard game was for 500 pts, which later was increased to 750 pts because epic warcasters and character warjacks were more expensive (warnouns actually cost points back then). With free casters, more relative warjackpoints and free models from themes, the game has blown up to proportions that were not part of the original design. This is why games like 40k abstract the rules for units, for example. Im also under the impression the game has grown too large. That's probably why they pushed themes. They could have just reduced the format to today's 50pt format. I quite like those myself, much easier to oversee. Isn't there allready such a format at official tournaments though?
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Post by sand20go on Dec 18, 2018 22:53:49 GMT
I understand where the original post comes from, the amount of Memory RAM that you need to play a 75+theme game is astounding, at least for me to consider it "fun". You need to remember at all times what your things do and what your opponent things do. Just the whole "tell me your TOTAL charge range" is perplexing with all the modifiers armies might have, not including spell and feats' powerful mechanics. The bussines model comment I guess comes from the fact that PP has pushed bigger and bigger army sizes every edition. The original game design was not meant for the actual 90-100 pts armies and the number of individual miniatures it can include, let alone miniatures with 4-10 special abilities BESIDES their main stats. The original MK1 standard game was for 500 pts, which later was increased to 750 pts because epic warcasters and character warjacks were more expensive (warnouns actually cost points back then). With free casters, more relative warjackpoints and free models from themes, the game has blown up to proportions that were not part of the original design. This is why games like 40k abstract the rules for units, for example. Im also under the impression the game has grown too large. That's probably why they pushed themes. They could have just reduced the format to today's 50pt format. I quite like those myself, much easier to oversee. Isn't there allready such a format at official tournaments though? I am not sure fully thought out themes actually simplify things. Yes, a subset of models to know but you still really need to know everything and the best themes (for example, Armor Korp) are very capable of being run by nearly every caster in the stable. Add in free points and essentially the "new norm" is 90 to 100 points. I am not a Circle player but it feels that Tharn has similar depth. Immortals and Trenchers are more narrow casted (it feels). Not sure about menoth or Slaughter - we just do not have enough Cryx and Menoth for me to comment.
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on Dec 19, 2018 3:48:06 GMT
Its baffling to me that this mentality still exists in MKIII. PP pretty directly wanted to get away from it the moment they opened up pre-measuring and nixed Page 5. Players should be able to execute clean turns according to their plan without having to worry about minor memory lapses or measurements ruining the over all strategic enjoyment of the game. People like your opponent are cancer. They're cancer in WMH and they're cancer in every other table top game system out there. I promise you that playing 40k or xwing with that same guy would also be a similarly miserable experience. When this kind of stuff happens just smile. Shake his hand and congratulate him on the victory and make a mental note to play absolutely anybody else on game night if possible. Wow, that sounds harsh! Maybe "cancer" is a bit much? Well I guess I won't get any cheers for this, but you know why rules are great? They're the same for everyone! I think if anyone's being a jerk here is OP for trying to take back his mistake, instead of taking it like a champ and moving on. This isn't so serious, it's just a game. Then there is the question where you draw the line? Counter charge? Free strikes? Your enire turn? I do agree with OP's point though. IMO the game takes too much work to have such tight rules. Would be better suited to a skirmish level game or something faster, where a small mistake only loses you a game, not the whole night.
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Post by grimworks on Dec 20, 2018 6:03:47 GMT
I think WMH is a game where perfect information and clean play meet and reward expectations best. Ask your opponent general but very clear questions: "What is your maximum charge range (and what is it conditional on), do you have any other forms of effective threat extension? Do you have any out of activation movements? What is the damage status on your pieces? etc"
I find questions like those help and also circumvent not so friendly players who might go for avenues like "you asked for admonition which I don't have but have enliven instead". If your opponent chooses not to disclose when answering this questions, I would put it clearly that subsequently the opponent should not have that option available as a line of play and if they do choose to use to do and use the rule in a tournament setting, I would strongly consider involving a TO in the decision process.
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on Dec 20, 2018 7:31:37 GMT
Actually I don't think those type of questions need to be answered. One is only required to provide cards or show the warroom on the asker's clock.
In other words, you are not required to tell your opponent your list's combos. The game is open information, which is not the same as letting your opponent know your plans.
I frequently do answer these questions, and even warn my opponents about stuff. In regards of winning, that is a bit stupid habit, but I don't like to win on a gotcha.
Kinda like I said in my previous post; you can't judge players who follow the rules. Especially rude is to assume the opponent should cater to your gaming needs, so you wouldn't feel bad.You can't be claiming WM/H the competitive mini game, and then strip the competitiveness out of it and calling people jerks by not abiding your inabilites to handle mistakes emotionally.
What I wrote naturally mostly applies to a tournament setting. When playing friendly games, it's perhaps best to agree on the nature of the game beforehand.
Please note, before going into personal assumptions (as people have in this forum). I used the word "you", but don't mean anyone specific. Read it as "one". Number two; I don't behave like that or encorage people to do so. I'm only concerned of attitudes people are judged with, simply because they want to follow the game's rules.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Dec 20, 2018 9:47:34 GMT
In here (Poland) most -if not all- players, including the top ones, share information freely, even at tournaments. It is quite normal for us to remind opponents of things like our out of activation movements, Vengeance, defensive strikes etc so that in games we can actually outplay and not out-surprise one another. The same applies to questions about maximum ranges - if they are more complicated we usually add things together. Changing the declared activation before any game-changing moves are made, is also regular, friendly play ("the guy you're shooting at has Stealth, maybe pick another target?" "haven't you forgotten to allocate?")
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Post by cgdeth on Dec 20, 2018 11:32:51 GMT
Its baffling to me that this mentality still exists in MKIII. PP pretty directly wanted to get away from it the moment they opened up pre-measuring and nixed Page 5. Players should be able to execute clean turns according to their plan without having to worry about minor memory lapses or measurements ruining the over all strategic enjoyment of the game. People like your opponent are cancer. They're cancer in WMH and they're cancer in every other table top game system out there. I promise you that playing 40k or xwing with that same guy would also be a similarly miserable experience. When this kind of stuff happens just smile. Shake his hand and congratulate him on the victory and make a mental note to play absolutely anybody else on game night if possible. Wow, that sounds harsh! Maybe "cancer" is a bit much? Well I guess I won't get any cheers for this, but you know why rules are great? They're the same for everyone! I think if anyone's being a jerk here is OP for trying to take back his mistake, instead of taking it like a champ and moving on. This isn't so serious, it's just a game. Then there is the question where you draw the line? Counter charge? Free strikes? Your enire turn? I do agree with OP's point though. IMO the game takes too much work to have such tight rules. Would be better suited to a skirmish level game or something faster, where a small mistake only loses you a game, not the whole night. Calling someone cancer is harsh. What he probably means is that someone who is so asinine about a single mistake isn't worth playing against. I mean this isn't so serious remember. If purity is up on a unit of knights exemplar Errants and you say you're casting a spell at them; do I A) say haha get rid of your focus but that spell doesn't work on them. Or B) Purity is up on the Errants do you want to do that? I think the key point is at the end of the day this is a game. Even at the highest end of the competitive meta...it's still just a game with little dudes on a table.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Dec 20, 2018 11:44:27 GMT
If purity is up on a unit of knights exemplar Errants and you say you're casting a spell at them; do I A) say haha get rid of your focus but that spell doesn't work on them. Or B) Purity is up on the Errants do you want to do that? That's actually different though. If they can't be targeted by spells, casting a spell at them is an illegal action so you should revert the game state to the last legal state. This is opposed to something like stealth, where targeting the model is perfectly fine, but you automatically miss.
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Post by slaughtersun on Dec 20, 2018 12:07:42 GMT
The amount of text and bizarre extrapolations that are on this thread are verging on the insane.
People complain that the game is complex and yet dedicate an enormous amount of time thinking about what is the correct speech and what is an activation and... then blame it on the company.
It seems that common sense is a rare commodity these days. It's no wonder PP shut down most of their forums.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Dec 20, 2018 14:48:12 GMT
what is an activation and... then blame it on the company For the record, I'm not blaming it on the company. It's such a pedantic thing that I wouldn't expect any company to really think about it. Most people here aren't blaming PP for anything, even the title of the thread is pretty much click bait and the real problem was the players involved.
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