privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Dec 17, 2018 20:27:27 GMT
I would debate when an activation officially starts as there is no clear indication in the rules if it starts when you say what you want to do or when you actually move a model after saying what you want it to do. If it were the case that it started when you said what you were going to do, there are plenty of times I could tell an opponent that his caster activated and cast spells because he said it out loud before his hands even touched the table that round.
Though I feel that that sort of debate isn't really in the spirit of the rules to begin with
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Dec 17, 2018 20:31:14 GMT
Im the most casual of players, yet I agree with none of you. I feel that the problem is not that you forgot there was an upkeep in play, but that you didn't give carefull thought to it's implications [edit: or didn't know the implications /edit] when it was put into play in the first place. If you had you wouldn't have forgotten.
You all make it sound as if "gotcha" moments are cheap tricks, whereas what they really do is show you there's insights to the game or a level of alertness you still lack. Maybe next time you are very much aware of it, only to find out that in your attempt to circumvent the bad stuff all the awaits you is a second trap. Because people do that, build lists where you have to pick your poison and you can't avoid all of it, or just don't have the time to give it all the thought it deserves. When people build lists to force you to make these kind of mistakes, that's just another legitimate tactic. It may not be the most friendly approach but it's definitely one that teaches ye. You know.... ones you're done making a villain out of such a player.
Is this a problem in their business model? The game has depth.... maybe that was dumb decision
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Dec 17, 2018 20:52:06 GMT
You all make it sound as if "gotcha" moments are cheap tricks, whereas what they really do is show you there's insights to the game or a level of alertness you still lack. I can agree with this. The game is an open game, it's on the active player to ask questions about models and abilities and the inactive player has to answer them to the best of their ability. If you don't know what question to ask, or if you ask the wrong question, it's not your opponents fault that their model has spell ward or counter charge and punks your plans. It is on the player to leave tokens out, though. If there isn't an effect marked, then the thing never happened. If he left a token, and he did in this case, it is on the active player to ask what the token is and what it means.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Dec 17, 2018 21:05:09 GMT
Im the most casual of players, yet I agree with none of you. I feel that the problem is not that you forgot there was an upkeep in play, but that you didn't give carefull thought to it's implications when it was put into play in the first place. If you had you wouldn't have forgotten. You all make it sound as if "gotcha" moments are cheap tricks, whereas what they really do is show you there's insights to the game or a level of alertness you still lack. Maybe next time you are very much aware of it, only to find out that in your attempt to circumvent the bad stuff all the awaits you is a second trap. Because people do that, build lists where you have to pick your poison and you can't avoid all of it, or just don't have the time to give it all the thought it deserves. When people build lists to force you to make these kind of mistakes, that's just another legitimate tactic. It may not be the most friendly approach but it's definitely one that teaches ye. You know.... ones you're done making a villain out of such a player. Is this a problem in their business model? The game has depth.... maybe that was dumb decision Gotcha moments are tricks. In a tournament, they're a valid way to win (and good tournament players will be aware of them, or will know the right questions to ask to find out about them...or they'll get got). Happens to the best players sometimes. In a practice game? There's no percentage in getting a win off of a gotcha. Tell your opponent if they're walking into a game-losing error, let them reposition to avoid it, and continue. You get better at the game by playing clean games where both players are playing at their best, so that you can look back on the game and identify broad things to improve on later. A good practice game is one where the takeaway isn't 'better not forget about wailing/stick my caster within 3" of my colossal into LoTF/insert gotcha here' it's one where the takeaway is something like 'hmmm. I think I undercommitted to my left flank, and committed my gargantuan too early in the centre. Also, I gave up too much in trying to remove X support solo. Maybe I should reassess next time'. A player who continually wins/loses on gotchas isn't going to play the kind of practice games that lets them identify actual, broad strokes flaws in their play, because that stuff only becomes apparent when the game goes longer. It's something I see in tournaments quite a bit - the opponent banks on a gotcha, then has no real backup plan when you see the trap, avoid it, and take advantage of their otherwise suboptimal play. In a lot of metas, it seems like the 'best player' is just the guy who gotchas hardest, but it's not actually how you win against good players.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Dec 17, 2018 21:12:01 GMT
I would debate when an activation officially starts as there is no clear indication in the rules if it starts when you say what you want to do or when you actually move a model after saying what you want it to do. If it were the case that it started when you said what you were going to do, there are plenty of times I could tell an opponent that his caster activated and cast spells because he said it out loud before his hands even touched the table that round. Though I feel that that sort of debate isn't really in the spirit of the rules to begin with The way the OP presented the situation the order was allready given (and as such the unit was activating), then reacted to by the opponent, then withdrawn because of that reaction. If the withdrawal happened before the opponent ever spoke out that would be fair imo, comparable to moving a chesspiece but holding it in order to give it some final thought.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Dec 17, 2018 21:36:49 GMT
Im the most casual of players, yet I agree with none of you. I feel that the problem is not that you forgot there was an upkeep in play, but that you didn't give carefull thought to it's implications when it was put into play in the first place. If you had you wouldn't have forgotten. You all make it sound as if "gotcha" moments are cheap tricks, whereas what they really do is show you there's insights to the game or a level of alertness you still lack. Maybe next time you are very much aware of it, only to find out that in your attempt to circumvent the bad stuff all the awaits you is a second trap. Because people do that, build lists where you have to pick your poison and you can't avoid all of it, or just don't have the time to give it all the thought it deserves. When people build lists to force you to make these kind of mistakes, that's just another legitimate tactic. It may not be the most friendly approach but it's definitely one that teaches ye. You know.... ones you're done making a villain out of such a player. Is this a problem in their business model? The game has depth.... maybe that was dumb decision Gotcha moments are tricks. In a tournament, they're a valid way to win (and good tournament players will be aware of them, or will know the right questions to ask to find out about them...or they'll get got). Happens to the best players sometimes. In a practice game? There's no percentage in getting a win off of a gotcha. Tell your opponent if they're walking into a game-losing error, let them reposition to avoid it, and continue. You get better at the game by playing clean games where both players are playing at their best, so that you can look back on the game and identify broad things to improve on later. A good practice game is one where the takeaway isn't 'better not forget about wailing/stick my caster within 3" of my colossal into LoTF/insert gotcha here' it's one where the takeaway is something like 'hmmm. I think I undercommitted to my left flank, and committed my gargantuan too early in the centre. Also, I gave up too much in trying to remove X support solo. Maybe I should reassess next time'. A player who continually wins/loses on gotchas isn't going to play the kind of practice games that lets them identify actual, broad strokes flaws in their play, because that stuff only becomes apparent when the game goes longer. It's something I see in tournaments quite a bit - the opponent banks on a gotcha, then has no real backup plan when you see the trap, avoid it, and take advantage of their otherwise suboptimal play. In a lot of metas, it seems like the 'best player' is just the guy who gotchas hardest, but it's not actually how you win against good players. Sure you need to talk about it when someone made (or if you feel friendly is about to make) a critical mistake, but that un can also take place after the game. I guess we hold different opinions here, I usually remember the rough lessons better... and indeed learn from if you talk about it afterwards but for me, these lessons just stick better when accompanied by memories of utter dominance/luck/failure. As such I do not avoid them, lay it on me. In this case, maybe the OP grew overconfident. He felt good, he felt in control, probably was, and then he #@+&£# IT UP! Not doing that is an essential part of these games, and something you should also learn during practise games. Reading back the OP though I kinda agree with you. A game where you are both trying out new units... maybe not the best place to also practise that.
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Post by sand20go on Dec 17, 2018 21:52:35 GMT
Im the most casual of players, yet I agree with none of you. I feel that the problem is not that you forgot there was an upkeep in play, but that you didn't give carefull thought to it's implications when it was put into play in the first place. If you had you wouldn't have forgotten. You all make it sound as if "gotcha" moments are cheap tricks, whereas what they really do is show you there's insights to the game or a level of alertness you still lack. Maybe next time you are very much aware of it, only to find out that in your attempt to circumvent the bad stuff all the awaits you is a second trap. Because people do that, build lists where you have to pick your poison and you can't avoid all of it, or just don't have the time to give it all the thought it deserves. When people build lists to force you to make these kind of mistakes, that's just another legitimate tactic. It may not be the most friendly approach but it's definitely one that teaches ye. You know.... ones you're done making a villain out of such a player. Is this a problem in their business model? The game has depth.... maybe that was dumb decision Gotcha moments are tricks. In a tournament, they're a valid way to win (and good tournament players will be aware of them, or will know the right questions to ask to find out about them...or they'll get got). Happens to the best players sometimes. In a practice game? There's no percentage in getting a win off of a gotcha. Tell your opponent if they're walking into a game-losing error, let them reposition to avoid it, and continue. You get better at the game by playing clean games where both players are playing at their best, so that you can look back on the game and identify broad things to improve on later. A good practice game is one where the takeaway isn't 'better not forget about wailing/stick my caster within 3" of my colossal into LoTF/insert gotcha here' it's one where the takeaway is something like 'hmmm. I think I undercommitted to my left flank, and committed my gargantuan too early in the centre. Also, I gave up too much in trying to remove X support solo. Maybe I should reassess next time'. A player who continually wins/loses on gotchas isn't going to play the kind of practice games that lets them identify actual, broad strokes flaws in their play, because that stuff only becomes apparent when the game goes longer. It's something I see in tournaments quite a bit - the opponent banks on a gotcha, then has no real backup plan when you see the trap, avoid it, and take advantage of their otherwise suboptimal play. In a lot of metas, it seems like the 'best player' is just the guy who gotchas hardest, but it's not actually how you win against good players. First, totally agree with this. Ending games early (or on banking on your opponents poor memory) is not a good way to improve (see below). You will come up against someone who DOES remember or, more likely, plays your faction as well and knows all the tricks and probably others better. Lets call these "cheap tricks"
"Expensive tricks" are different. They are threat saturation and since caster kill is a win condition you really are presenting your opponent with dammed if you do. A FAR different scenario would have been if the second S&B had wailing on it and had run into my lines. They my opponent could have been very transparent, "Remember, no orders within 5 of that upkeep. Good luck." ....or LAYERED the crabbits so I couldn't get to the one with the wailing. Somewhat less "deep" but then also no shield wall. And BTW - if I activate the Shocks first and give out the shield wall order the trick falls apart as it reminds me that wailing is out and I need to kill the rabbit (while singing my best impression of elmer fudge).
I also just don't like winning enough to enjoy winning that way. I play a faction largely WITHOUT cheap tricks but I always:
A) Explain how Zerkova 1 can apparate and run ponies across the board. Still stings from a frustrating loss when Skorne Mordikar didn't explain that trick with the Archidons
B) Explain Sorscha1's total threat range for her feat and also how much shooting and from how far I have. Similar to some frustrating losses against Caine3 before I fully understood how far he threatens.
C) Explain, in exhaustive detail strakov's overrun tricks. Usefully when I have played other overrun casters I "get" that and know to understand it.
D) And soon, I hope, get enough table time to explain Malakov's tricks with his feat and Veil of Mists.
And I do so because we are not playing poker for money. This is a GAME - a shared experience that is supposed to be FUN. Why else would we do it?
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 17, 2018 22:27:23 GMT
sand20go Warmachine is an unforgiving game, the fact that losing just one model can end it all, highlights that pretty well I feel. That however that does not mean players have to be unforgiving, and your scenario sounds like just that. Have PP fostered a competitive game? Yes Are they responsible for your casual gaming night opponent being a bel end? No Personally I love the depth of rules and interactions, but maybe that's just because I seem to remember things pretty well
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Dec 18, 2018 3:36:16 GMT
Don't play the dude anymore. Simple.
Now, also worth stating: anyone who thinks that a *near* encyclopedic knowledge of the game is not needed to do well is just wrong. WMH is incredibly unforgiving, and that is based entirely on the incredible number of unique abilities and functions of every model in the game, which is a very large number of interactions. Not knowing the rules very well means looking at an upkeep token with a "W" written on it doesnt immediately recognize as anything unless you have played against child enough to know that its wailing, and even then it might not strike you as important if you normally play huge battlegroup and now not being able to issue an order to a unit is something you have to worry about. The number of things you have to know, just to play on an even playing field is almost absurd. Which is why people like this just make it more frustrating for intermediate and beginning players to advance and get off of the porch. They aren't doing anything to help the game, and at a time when finding new players is very difficult, people like this are a net negative to the growth of the game and need to be excised or at least censured for their behavior.
Also, other news, most of the people who are "competitive" here, have done this to a player at some time or another. myself included. just food for thought. Don't say you haven't, people are likely not to tell the truth when confronted with something like this an anonymity anyway, but, you have.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Dec 18, 2018 7:22:14 GMT
Now, also worth stating: anyone who thinks that a *near* encyclopedic knowledge of the game is not needed to do well is just wrong. WMH is incredibly unforgiving, and that is based entirely on the incredible number of unique abilities and functions of every model in the game, which is a very large number of interactions. Not knowing the rules very well means looking at an upkeep token with a "W" written on it doesnt immediately recognize as anything unless you have played against child enough to know that its wailing, and even then it might not strike you as important if you normally play huge battlegroup and now not being able to issue an order to a unit is something you have to worry about. The number of things you have to know, just to play on an even playing field is almost absurd. Which is why people like this just make it more frustrating for intermediate and beginning players to advance and get off of the porch. They aren't doing anything to help the game, and at a time when finding new players is very difficult, people like this are a net negative to the growth of the game and need to be excised or at least censured for their behavior. Also, other news, most of the people who are "competitive" here, have done this to a player at some time or another. myself included. just food for thought. Don't say you haven't, people are likely not to tell the truth when confronted with something like this an anonymity anyway, but, you have. I don't think you need encyclopedic knowledge to do well. Don't get me wrong, it definitely helps, but if you know the general gist and ask the right questions, you should do fine. Things like "what's your threat range", "What's that crazy trick that Lord of the Feats can do?". By extension OP should've asked what that token with "W" was, that's on him, but for his opponent to force him to adhere to a "gotcha" like that, when the board state had not changed yet, is just bad sportsmanship. Tricks are meant to force your opponent's hand, to create a table state that can bring you to victory. Counting on the person across from you to forget something is a bad strategy. And yes, I have been that guy at some (a few) points in my long Warmachine career and I still feel bad about them; I've evolved as a player. Maybe I'm the exception, but that's also why I prefer to talk to the guy and reform them than to just ignore them until the end of times. PS sand20go Even if there are no physical cards, you can still ask your opponent for his cards. If he only has War Room, he will have to give you his device; this is an open game and he has to give you the information you request.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Dec 18, 2018 9:07:57 GMT
I cannot believe this. So, the guy is losing right? The one hope he has to send this game is for the opponent to make a crucial mistake, which in fact happens, and you all think he's a nobhead for taking advantage of it?
All this talk about playing the game through to the end and learning more from that, it just doesn't apply here. The game was in the bag, and then giftwrapped and given away. At least that's how I read it. What more was there to learn?
Edit: If there's one thing I learned from situations like this it's to never give up untill it's a 100% over. Because these things happen all the time. Lucky win? Sure. But you can't accuse such a winner of not playing it through to the end. Quite the opposite in fact.
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Post by mrbill on Dec 18, 2018 13:08:23 GMT
So basically you willfully chose to remain ignorant of your opponent's capabilities, tried to activate a unit in the middle of another unit's activation and when called out for trying to weasel your way out of a pickle you huffed and puffed, packed up your models and went home to cry on the internet?
If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. -Sun Tzu
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Post by P'tit Nico on Dec 18, 2018 13:26:04 GMT
This has nothing to do with PP's business plan. This is just another case of "git gud". It is not even a "gotcha" ability, it's just that you didn't bother to ask your opponent what his spell did.
Your opponent might be kind of a jerk (although it depends, some people - like me - like to play as if it were a tournament game even on friendly game nights), but you're just being a whining kid.
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Post by GumbaFish on Dec 18, 2018 13:57:51 GMT
Does it actually say anywhere in the rules that verbal intent starts a unit's activation? This isn't a snarky comment, I am generally curious. I think most people talk out loud when they are playing and often say things and decide otherwise. If nothing has been moved then I would never prevent someone from doing a different action. Even if something has been moved but can easily be placed back that is fine with me personally, though I understand how others would feel differently on this point.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Dec 18, 2018 14:22:56 GMT
Does it actually say anywhere in the rules that verbal intent starts a unit's activation? This isn't a snarky comment, I am generally curious. I think most people talk out loud when they are playing and often say things and decide otherwise. If nothing has been moved then I would never prevent someone from doing a different action. Even if something has been moved but can easily be placed back that is fine with me personally, though I understand how others would feel differently on this point. No, it doesn't. That's what I would contest, and why I would want to know when exactly a units activation starts. I'm in the camp that an activation starts when a model is touched, not when you say what the model might do. In this event, the opponent spoke about their ability and the OP changed their mind before touching any models.
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