bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
|
Post by bundeez on Dec 12, 2018 17:00:19 GMT
...really? "Seakings gun is really good": For what? What are you going to shoot with it that makes is so good? It's only range 10 and not even high explosive. Kill 1 single wound infantry model and corrode 1/2 more? "animus is situational, but really powerfull": To do what with? I am genuinely curious, cause I have no clue what you see of value in it. Very janky and expensive minor threat extender? Please enlighten me
|
|
|
Post by mydnight on Dec 12, 2018 19:57:14 GMT
...really? "Seakings gun is really good": For what? What are you going to shoot with it that makes is so good? It's only range 10 and not even high explosive. Kill 1 single wound infantry model and corrode 1/2 more? "animus is situational, but really powerfull": To do what with? I am genuinely curious, cause I have no clue what you see of value in it. Very janky and expensive minor threat extender? Please enlighten me The grim 1 huge base player uses it to kill shield wall troops. It it two 3" aoes that do an additional dice to living models, with the potential to boost on a fury 5. It is better than high explosive. The animus actually gels really well with the gun and other aoe attacks, such as the war or beer wagon, besides catching non pathfinder models. Sea king is not a point and shoot model.
|
|
|
Post by Big Fat Troll on Dec 13, 2018 6:12:13 GMT
Grim 1 likes the Sea King because he's actually a board control caster. One of these days I'm going to run either Gunny, Kolgrima, or one of the Grims with Longchops, Ambushers, (so probably Bears & Lookouts) and a Sea King, just to get some practice with that style of play.
|
|
jarrow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 274
|
Post by jarrow on Dec 13, 2018 7:50:07 GMT
...really? "Seakings gun is really good": For what? What are you going to shoot with it that makes is so good? It's only range 10 and not even high explosive. Kill 1 single wound infantry model and corrode 1/2 more? "animus is situational, but really powerfull": To do what with? I am genuinely curious, cause I have no clue what you see of value in it. Very janky and expensive minor threat extender? Please enlighten me The grim 1 huge base player uses it to kill shield wall troops. It it two 3" aoes that do an additional dice to living models, with the potential to boost on a fury 5. It is better than high explosive. The animus actually gels really well with the gun and other aoe attacks, such as the war or beer wagon, besides catching non pathfinder models. Sea king is not a point and shoot model. Don't forget secondary blast. Pow13 4D6 can really hurt even living-heavies and 3D6 POW13 kill solos as good as high explosive. And animus is threat extender that don't use animus slot, tool for AOE:s, def buff for EDBT and read block for many warjacks and beasts (not for gator, legion or circle ones). It's also threat extender that enemy is hard to remember and calculate. (but also goes easily to grey zone is opponent asks you threat range) And I totally agree that Sea king is not a point and shoot model. It's toolbox gargantuan that need deep knowledge of it's abilities.
|
|
|
Sea King
Dec 13, 2018 9:11:35 GMT
via mobile
Post by grabsnikk on Dec 13, 2018 9:11:35 GMT
Grim 1 likes the Sea King because he's actually a board control caster. One of these days I'm going to run either Gunny, Kolgrima, or one of the Grims with Longchops, Ambushers, (so probably Bears & Lookouts) and a Sea King, just to get some practice with that style of play. This would be quite interesting to try out and to see if the Sea King is better than the Glacier King with Gunny when trying to run a board control list although I still think the GK wins here.
|
|
jarrow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 274
|
Post by jarrow on Dec 13, 2018 10:17:40 GMT
This would be quite interesting to try out and to see if the Sea King is better than the Glacier King with Gunny when trying to run a board control list although I still think the GK wins here. Gunny is one of the best casters to run GK, but killshot sounds really sweet on SK too. Even better than on GK.
|
|
bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
|
Post by bundeez on Dec 13, 2018 18:09:55 GMT
I get what you guys are saying but I'm still not convinced Sure, LoS_Jaden used it in his Grim1 list against Merc in a final, but I doubt it's gun killed very many dwarf dudes or was any big part of his list creation. Maybe he can chime in if he sees this threat, as he has 100% more play experience with a sea king over me. And sure poison is cool but do you want your sea king within 10'' of a much less expensive heavy without killing it? Yes I know you can shoot it with other stuff as well and hope to take it out, but then you might as well have brought other beasts with guns - which are just as good: Slag troll against Jacks, Bomber, heck even the Blitzer can shoot that much damage into a heavy if it is lucky. It needs something more imo when the gun sits on a gargantuan. MT king has assault AND kill shot, Glacier king has push/knockdown utility, longer range and more shots. Much better guns! Animus: So you want to run a whelp within 2'' of say an enemy heavy. You then move sea king up boost a shot in the back of the whelp (that's 3 fury btw), to move the enemy heavy 1,-almost 2 inches to the whelp. You can now charge it provided you have pathfinder because of the water. Any heavy besides the Earthborn now needs Rush to actually get there. If you have no pathfinder and move more than 1 inch into the water you actually lose the threat extension. Does this seem plausible?? In other words: Show us a list that takes advantage of the gun and/or animus (for anything other than +2 DEF to EBDT). Preferably designed against any list in current (or future?) meta.
|
|
|
Post by Big Fat Troll on Dec 14, 2018 17:59:07 GMT
Hear me out on this, but I think the order of how good the kings generally are is actually GK, SK, then MK last, though this might only be because the meta has shifted away from jack spam and beast bricks for the most part.
My reasoning has to do with the very nature of putting 32 to 38 points into one huge-based model. It's a big target, and you need some way to protect that investment, but you also can't afford to leave a third of your points out of the fight. On top of this, everyone has to protect their caster, and we also have to cover the Krielstone. So with a king added on, we then have three key pieces to protect, and that is a real disadvantage.
Some of our warlocks can do a better job of this than others. Gunny might be our best at it but Madrak 1 can also stop the king from being charged for a turn and heal chip damage while he's at it. Ragnor and Doomy 3 can do a lot with their feats, but a whole army going in on one model will still kill it. Regardless of caster though, it's always easier to protect a model that doesn't need to be up front and center to do its thing.
At the same time, we can't protect it by holding it so far back that it can't do anything, and it's easier to maneuver a huge base if you don't have to worry about getting it into melee until the late game when there are fewer models on the table.
Then there's the fact that losing a gargantuan will always hurt more than losing a colossal, simply because you need it to generate fury. You will often see a colossal as the only warjack in a list with multiple fighting units, but that is always a bigger risk in Hordes so it's much less common. Madrak 1 does it because he doesn't need a ton of fury and he can cover the GK with his feat.
This is why the gargantuans that do see play all have some combination of the ability project serious threat from distance, strong support for the rest of the army, or a built-in ability to play cagey. For example, the Blightbringer supports and shoots, while the Archangel shoots and maneuvers. Colossals tend to have better shooting and can often get by on that alone for entire games.
None of the kings are "cagey," because that wouldn't make sense, but the GK shoots and supports better than the other two. It has the greatest range and number of shots. Those shots deal decent damage and have useful effects. It grants concealment in a pretty big aura. Its animus is often useful.
Whereas the Mountain King can't support anything but other beasts and can't really be in a list with multiple other warbeasts in any theme other than POD, where all it does is exacerbate that theme's current problems. Sure, it's the only way to get Rage in Kriel Company, where the 3rd freebie isn't so compelling that you can't skip it, and you could theoretically fit MK and Ice Troll x3 in a list with 40 points of units, but that's easier said than done.
With Assault, the Mountain King has a greater potential unbuffed threat range than the others, but that just isn't as meaningful. That's only one inch greater than the Glacier King and only along certain vectors, and it only gets one shot. Unless it does trigger Kill Shot, which is redundant with Gunny's Field Marshal.
Yes, the Mountain King can deal significantly more damage in melee, but then how often does it wind up trading down? And how often is the GK's melee capability not enough? Yes, the spray is fantastic, especially with Guided Fire, but it can be harder to use optimally in practice than you might think.
Then there's the Sea King. Its melee capability is in some ways the best of all three, its gun is nasty to most infantry and many warbeasts, and its animus offers some nice board control.
I don't think the Mountain King is bad, I just think that it has a harder time pulling its weight than the others.
|
|
Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
|
Post by Arcaux on Dec 14, 2018 19:14:49 GMT
Hear me out on this, but I think the order of how good the kings generally are is actually GK, SK, then MK last, though this might only be because the meta has shifted away from jack spam and beast bricks for the most part. My reasoning has to do with the very nature of putting 32 to 38 points into one huge-based model. It's a big target, and you need some way to protect that investment, but you also can't afford to leave a third of your points out of the fight. On top of this, everyone has to protect their caster, and we also have to cover the Krielstone. So with a king added on, we then have three key pieces to protect, and that is a real disadvantage. Some of our warlocks can do a better job of this than others. Gunny might be our best at it but Madrak 1 can also stop the king from being charged for a turn and heal chip damage while he's at it. Ragnor and Doomy 3 can do a lot with their feats, but a whole army going in on one model will still kill it. Regardless of caster though, it's always easier to protect a model that doesn't need to be up front and center to do its thing. At the same time, we can't protect it by holding it so far back that it can't do anything, and it's easier to maneuver a huge base if you don't have to worry about getting it into melee until the late game when there are fewer models on the table. Then there's the fact that losing a gargantuan will always hurt more than losing a colossal, simply because you need it to generate fury. You will often see a colossal as the only warjack in a list with multiple fighting units, but that is always a bigger risk in Hordes so it's much less common. Madrak 1 does it because he doesn't need a ton of fury and he can cover the GK with his feat. This is why the gargantuans that do see play all have some combination of the ability project serious threat from distance, strong support for the rest of the army, or a built-in ability to play cagey. For example, the Blightbringer supports and shoots, while the Archangel shoots and maneuvers. Colossals tend to have better shooting and can often get by on that alone for entire games. None of the kings are "cagey," because that wouldn't make sense, but the GK shoots and supports better than the other two. It has the greatest range and number of shots. Those shots deal decent damage and have useful effects. It grants concealment in a pretty big aura. Its animus is often useful. Whereas the Mountain King can't support anything but other beasts and can't really be in a list with multiple other warbeasts in any theme other than POD, where all it does is exacerbate that theme's current problems. Sure, it's the only way to get Rage in Kriel Company, where the 3rd freebie isn't so compelling that you can't skip it, and you could theoretically fit MK and Ice Troll x3 in a list with 40 points of units, but that's easier said than done. With Assault, the Mountain King has a greater potential unbuffed threat range than the others, but that just isn't as meaningful. That's only one inch greater than the Glacier King and only along certain vectors, and it only gets one shot. Unless it does trigger Kill Shot, which is redundant with Gunny's Field Marshal. Yes, the Mountain King can deal significantly more damage in melee, but then how often does it wind up trading down? And how often is the GK's melee capability not enough? Yes, the spray is fantastic, especially with Guided Fire, but it can be harder to use optimally in practice than you might think. Then there's the Sea King. Its melee capability is in some ways the best of all three, its gun is nasty to most infantry and many warbeasts, and its animus offers some nice board control. I don't think the Mountain King is bad, I just think that it has a harder time pulling its weight than the others. I disagree and mostly because the Mountain king has the most relevant gun. With the meta full of medium based infantry he is shutting units down left and right. I agree you can't sit him back, but you need to know just how aggressive you can be with him without losing him. It's not easy, but it's certainly not impossible and the result is a probably the best Gargantuan in the game when you get it right.
|
|
jarrow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 274
|
Post by jarrow on Dec 17, 2018 6:35:10 GMT
I get what you guys are saying but I'm still not convinced Sure, LoS_Jaden used it in his Grim1 list against Merc in a final, but I doubt it's gun killed very many dwarf dudes or was any big part of his list creation. Maybe he can chime in if he sees this threat, as he has 100% more play experience with a sea king over me. And sure poison is cool but do you want your sea king within 10'' of a much less expensive heavy without killing it? Yes I know you can shoot it with other stuff as well and hope to take it out, but then you might as well have brought other beasts with guns - which are just as good: Slag troll against Jacks, Bomber, heck even the Blitzer can shoot that much damage into a heavy if it is lucky. It needs something more imo when the gun sits on a gargantuan. MT king has assault AND kill shot, Glacier king has push/knockdown utility, longer range and more shots. Much better guns! Animus: So you want to run a whelp within 2'' of say an enemy heavy. You then move sea king up boost a shot in the back of the whelp (that's 3 fury btw), to move the enemy heavy 1,-almost 2 inches to the whelp. You can now charge it provided you have pathfinder because of the water. Any heavy besides the Earthborn now needs Rush to actually get there. If you have no pathfinder and move more than 1 inch into the water you actually lose the threat extension. Does this seem plausible?? In other words: Show us a list that takes advantage of the gun and/or animus (for anything other than +2 DEF to EBDT). Preferably designed against any list in current (or future?) meta. First things first: I invent the 4 huge-base list and won Finland's biggest tournament with it. Jaden then copied it and made if famous. There is also two battle reports of the list by Jaden other than the deep-analyzes: www.loswarmachine.com/trollbloods-battle-reports/2018/6/11/warmachine-and-hordes-trollbloods-battle-report-vtt-round-1-grim-1-kriel-vs-strakhov-2-loswww.loswarmachine.com/trollbloods-battle-reports/2018/6/12/warmachine-and-hordes-trollbloods-battle-report-vtt-round-2-grim-1-kc-vs-kolgrima-bohAs seen on first battle report, seaking's gun is one of our best answers to Iron fangs (and other single wound infantry that goes to ARM23+). And for your animus question: other than buffing EDBT, I have not cast animus on seaking. It is caster that casts it and then seaking is the one to charge in. And mostly it is not something you plan to do. It's something you do when enemy is aware of your threat range and stay just out or your threat. Most often you just have to move enemy model couple of millimeter towards you, so line doesn't have to be directly towards you or full distance.
|
|
bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
|
Post by bundeez on Dec 17, 2018 21:12:09 GMT
Interesting! So you are the brain behind the list - care to elaborate some more on the list pair you had and/or the games you played if you can remember (with Grim1 ofc)?
Nice battlereports, thanks for sharing. I can see the merit for the sea king against ironfangs. Guess I never considered that because I haven't seen that list in several years at this point, no one in my meta plays that anymore - or any list similar for that matter. Only comparision is 2xsentinels in ret. But it seems to me a lot of the list is also the 3xbattle engines. The sea king didn't carry the game (first battle report you linked), which makes wonder if the same result could have been achieved with either of the 2 other kings instead..
Would you play sea king with any other caster than Grim1?
|
|
jarrow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 274
|
Post by jarrow on Dec 18, 2018 6:45:18 GMT
Interesting! So you are the brain behind the list - care to elaborate some more on the list pair you had and/or the games you played if you can remember (with Grim1 ofc)? Nice battlereports, thanks for sharing. I can see the merit for the sea king against ironfangs. Guess I never considered that because I haven't seen that list in several years at this point, no one in my meta plays that anymore - or any list similar for that matter. Only comparision is 2xsentinels in ret. But it seems to me a lot of the list is also the 3xbattle engines. The sea king didn't carry the game (first battle report you linked), which makes wonder if the same result could have been achieved with either of the 2 other kings instead.. Would you play sea king with any other caster than Grim1? As Jaden I also paired Grim1 with Borka2 SotN. Borka2's problem is hard hitting infantry swarms so Grim1 is made to handle infantry. That's why sea king is also best king to that list pair, as Iron Fangs for example is big pain to Borka2 (and list meta was before armored corps cid). Keep also mind that while HHH is really good agains iron fangs and do same job, war wagons are pure melee wagons on that matchup, as everything is steady and survive the blasts. But as mentioned before I have also played SK with Ragnor as ultimate beast brick. On that list SK is the most focus efficient beast that can do job by 0 fury. Both other kings can shoot better than SK if they have fury to spend, but SK have best gun with 0 fury.
|
|
|
Post by LoS Jaden on Jan 1, 2019 22:34:08 GMT
|
|
jarrow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 274
|
Post by jarrow on Jan 2, 2019 6:00:58 GMT
Jaden: No problem. I think you make it clear on your first post. The problem is, that you do not refer your battle reports on analysis blog and the analysis blog I think is the one new readers will get first contacts to that list.
|
|
|
Post by LoS Jaden on Jan 2, 2019 6:24:52 GMT
That's probably true, I will try and remember to go edit links in later
|
|