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Post by elricaltovilla on Dec 10, 2018 13:29:43 GMT
Sorry for the clickbaity title, but I never get to write those and they seem fun.
I was thinking last night about a change to one of the Stone Scribe Elder's abilities and wanted people to yell at me on the internet about it.
What if Spirit Chaser, instead of removing Stealth and Incorporeal from enemies in the stone bubble instead gave Guidance (Eyeless Sight and Magical Damage) to allies in the bubble.
I propose this change for a couple reasons:
1. The Stone is a buffing unit. This one Debuff abiliy is out of place.
2. This would greatly strengthen ranged troll lists (poor Kriel Company), that currently lack ways to deal with clouds or other anti-ranged tech without turning to minions.
3. Currently, I have used Spirit Chaser once in the two years that I have been playing trolls. Last week actually. So changing Spirit Chaser will make it a more appealing option when strength or anti-continuous aren't needed.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Dec 10, 2018 14:09:42 GMT
Your point isn't without merit.
Personally I like spirit chaser the way it is. I like that sometimes I need to put it in danger to destealth or coporealise an enemy. To me that feels like a good interaction. I need to put an asset at risk in order to solve a problem.
Although stronger in many situations I would also miss the ability of the stone to shut down incorporeal on my opponents turn. It's not really something opponents have to play around very often so watching them deal with a Wraith Engine that turns corporeal as it enters my stones range is kind of cool.
That isn't to say your point is wrong, more just that I like where it is right now.
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Dec 10, 2018 14:56:32 GMT
I hate being tied to that damn stone. Do whatever you want to it. Hey, are there any Australians here? They hate support, maybe they know how to get away from it!
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bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Dec 10, 2018 15:49:50 GMT
I kinda agree with you. I don't think I have ever used the spirit chaser ability, can't think of even one incident. Your proposal seem a little crazy, but considering the way PP hand out guidance/magical weapon/truesight/etc. recently I don't think it would make any big impact at all. As said it almost only affect guns, which for Trollbloods is not impressive anyway. I use a mist speaker for my glacier king, which is only useful 1/3 of the time, if not less. And it sure would fix a very big problem for KC/Sluggers, which could potentially put them on the table. I'd allow it!
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Post by Trollock on Dec 10, 2018 16:53:09 GMT
You guys never played against Maelok eh?
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Post by elricaltovilla on Dec 10, 2018 17:06:14 GMT
You guys never played against Maelok eh? Nobody in my meta plays Minions. I would, but I'm only interested in playing the Rask and Friends list, or Arkadius with all the razor boars I can field.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Dec 10, 2018 17:07:30 GMT
You would actually lose a useful dynamic that really does matter. Things like Immortals or Maelok's feated Posse or a Wraith Engine can use Incorporeal to charge into your lines and make a big mess, but with that aura active, those enemies lose Incorporeal the second they touch it. Being able to defend against the movement of Incorporeal models before they even attack is huge when it does come up.
FWIW, a Sorcerer on a unit of Sluggers does sound like a good idea because they have a good ratio of attacks to point cost. Scattergunners might be better though, and of course, the best place to put one is the Champions.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Dec 10, 2018 17:21:08 GMT
You would actually lose a useful dynamic that really does matter. Things like Immortals or Maelok's feated Posse or a Wraith Engine can use Incorporeal to charge into your lines and make a big mess, but with that aura active, those enemies lose Incorporeal the second they touch it. Being able to defend against the movement of Incorporeal models before they even attack is huge when it does come up. FWIW, a Sorcerer on a unit of Sluggers does sound like a good idea because they have a good ratio of attacks to point cost. Scattergunners might be better though, and of course, the best place to put one is the Champions. You know what it doesn't protect against though? Ghostly Slayers, Banes or Warpwolves doing the exact same thing. Point is, it's very powerful when necessary, but those cases are pretty few and far between. I'd prefer an option that is more generally useful. I may try sticking a sorcerer on the sluggers at some point though.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Dec 10, 2018 17:27:49 GMT
You would actually lose a useful dynamic that really does matter. Things like Immortals or Maelok's feated Posse or a Wraith Engine can use Incorporeal to charge into your lines and make a big mess, but with that aura active, those enemies lose Incorporeal the second they touch it. Being able to defend against the movement of Incorporeal models before they even attack is huge when it does come up. FWIW, a Sorcerer on a unit of Sluggers does sound like a good idea because they have a good ratio of attacks to point cost. Scattergunners might be better though, and of course, the best place to put one is the Champions. You know what it doesn't protect against though? Ghostly Slayers, Banes or Warpwolves doing the exact same thing. Point is, it's very powerful when necessary, but those cases are pretty few and far between. I'd prefer an option that is more generally useful. I may try sticking a sorcerer on the sluggers at some point though. Ghostly doesn't pass through models, only terrain. It does ignore free strikes but does not require magic weapons.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Dec 10, 2018 17:58:02 GMT
You know what it doesn't protect against though? Ghostly Slayers, Banes or Warpwolves doing the exact same thing. Point is, it's very powerful when necessary, but those cases are pretty few and far between. I'd prefer an option that is more generally useful. I may try sticking a sorcerer on the sluggers at some point though. Ghostly doesn't pass through models, only terrain. It does ignore free strikes but does not require magic weapons. Yes, but passing through terrain is often enough, especially if that terrain is a building.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Dec 12, 2018 9:24:10 GMT
First of all where all the sudden whining coming (back) from?!
Secondly, that utility is EXACLTY the best selling point of the regular Elder. You bring the Stone that you bring anyway and you are safe against a LOT of stupid bs coming your way. Tim Banky said after he won Champions with Trolls, that if you play Troll competetively you do it with the regular Elder or you don't.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Dec 12, 2018 12:07:06 GMT
First of all where all the sudden whining coming (back) from?! Secondly, that utility is EXACLTY the best selling point of the regular Elder. You bring the Stone that you bring anyway and you are safe against a LOT of stupid bs coming your way. Tim Banky said after he won Champions with Trolls, that if you play Troll competetively you do it with the regular Elder or you don't. Yes, there's the attitude and assumption laden response I was expecting! I'm sorry if you see my post as whiny, I'm not trying to come off that way. However, I am a creative person, a tinkerer and a homebrewer. It's in my nature to look at something and want to tweak it, change it, and hopefully improve it. I stated in my first post why I don't see much use for Spirit Chaser (I almost never face Incorporeal models, and actually have to deal with ghostly models running through buildings far more often) and was curious how others felt about it. Banky may have said that, but by your paraphrasing, we don't know which elder ability he meant. I use the anti-fire/corossion one almost every game, and it's kept my champs safe enough to deliver me the win more often than I really thought possible. He very well could have been talking about that ability. Or it could be that the regular elder affects non-northkin models, which means it will affect your beasts and other models. Really, citing Banky's quote is an appeal to authority. He might be an expert at playing Warmahordes, but that doesn't make him an expert at designing it. I also don't know when he said that, because if it was pre-SOTN then the quote loses merit as it means "It's better to bring the elder than not bring any of his Abilities" rather than "It's better to bring the regular elder than the northkin one.". Also, it seems much of the community now disagrees with that quote given the prevalence of double-SOTN lists I see. Clearly enough people see more value in the northkin elder that bringing it twice is regularly considered.
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Dec 12, 2018 13:14:36 GMT
I would take any bombastic statement Tim makes with a grain of salt, maybe even a bag. He rarely commits himself to a position he can't back out of later if need be.
Edit: That sounds more judgemental than I mean it to be. But i don't have time to make it more "political". So I'm leaving it as is with this addendum for tone.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Dec 12, 2018 13:33:50 GMT
He meantioned specifically the "normal" Elder for the reason mentioned. I think it was here: museonminis.com/blight-bringers-ep-09/If you encoutner certain matchups (this is more tournament realted obv.) you either have the guy or the smash an incop. collosal trough your line and you have trouble. Also you do not have to think about magic weapons as much. If you were to design that differendly, you would either lose utiliy (eyless sight OR magic weapons). And for Kriel Kompany they need to introduce something for that to work utside of specific matchups anyways, as that Theme is much more "shooty" than the others. The stone is a bubble that does things inside this bubble. Limiting that to just buffs if actually much more of a bad design than giving that another layer of complexity by adding in a (fluffy) debuff. Whishlisting does not do you any good in the actual game, the Devs will not magically listen to it an in the end you are only feeling like the gaming is missing out all these oviously great ideas (that might also be horrible for the game state, or actually just small tweaks). If you want an all Buff elder, go N-Elder I guess. If you like designing and thinking about that, I can respect that non the less.
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Post by Trollock on Dec 12, 2018 21:55:13 GMT
snoozerI agree with a lot of what you are saying, but for the record, a colossal can never gain incorporeal no matter what elder you bring, since it has the "great machine" special rule
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