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Post by Big Fat Troll on Dec 9, 2018 16:31:49 GMT
So, I managed to find this without entering the wretched hive of the WMH Facebook General group. :P But I don't know if this is going through CID or if it's set like this.
Cygnar- Gravediggers and Heavy Metal
Nemo 2, Siege 2, Sloan, and Kraye
Khador- Wolves of Winter and Armored Korps
Vlad 2, Irusk 2, OW2, and Sorscha 3
Menoth- Faithful Masses and Exemplar Interdiction
Kreoss 2, Cyrenia, Vindictus, Severius 2
Cryx- Black Industries and Slaughter Fleet
Scaverous, Skarre 3, Aiakos, Denny 1
Retribution- Forges of War and Legions of Dawn
Rahn, Ravyn, Ossyan, Vyros 2
Mercs- Llaelese Resistance, Hammer Strike, and Operating Theater
Crosse, Ashlynn, Durgen, Gorten, Cyphon
Convergence
Lucant, Mother, Orion
Crucible Guard
Syvestro, Gearhart, Locke
Trollbloods- Band of Heroes and Storm of the North
Grim 1, Borka 2, Grissel 2, and Kolgrima
Circle- Secret Masters and Devourer's Host
Iona, Wurmwood, Krueger 2, and Morvahna 1
Skorne- Imperial Warhost and Exaulted
Makeda 3, Zaal 2, Hexeris 2, and Morghul 1
Legion- Children of the Dragon and Primal Terrors
Kallus 1, Vayl 2, Thagrosh 1, Lylyth 1
Minions
Bloody Barnabus, Rask, Arkadius, Sturm & Drang
Grymkin
Heretic, Child, Wanderer
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Post by oncomingstorm on Dec 9, 2018 23:38:47 GMT
See also: Reasons why models/major changes to the rules should not be released without CID.
For instance, that Circle roster is absurd. arguably the 4 best non-bones casters in the faction, with the only weakness being having to play secret masters (not like a DevHost/SM pairing has won anything recently...)
Legion gets one of their strongest lists, Trolls get one of their strongest pairings (in Bearka/Kolgrimma), but...
Mercs get a bunch of B-list casters, Grymkin gets (arguably) their 3 worst casters, and Minions get 4 warlocks that all want to play WWFF.
Seems balanced, all right.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Dec 10, 2018 0:33:52 GMT
At least I'm not the only one who thinks it's actually pretty awful.
The bottom line for me is that I just don't see any point in making a separate format that limits the casters and themes we can play to... basically what we're already playing anyway. And it's even worse when that's only true for half of us and the other factions are a whole rung (or two) lower on the ladder.
It's funny that you mention the Merc roster specifically because IMO that is the best of them all in terms of what a Champions roster should be. Craft the rosters in such a way that makes for its own balanced metagame, yes, but get us playing something different. And don't put any of it on autopilot. If a theme or caster needs to leave the roster after only one season, then do that.
The limited factions are their own mess. It's basically impossible to give them a balanced roster unless they never change it, and maybe not even then. I almost wish it were possible to exclude them. I'd love a format where I wouldn't have to play against Grymkin, CG, and COC, and I'm sure that Infernals will be an unholy pain in the ass too. Pun intended.
I say all of this knowing that the only way the Trollbloods roster could be stronger is if Grissel 2 swapped out for Madrak 1, and she's no slouch herself.
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bacon
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134 
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Post by bacon on Dec 10, 2018 1:24:09 GMT
Rask's tool kit lets him work with infantry well. In normal pairings that type of list would be overshadowed by Maelok but he isn't in this rotation. Honestly depending what you need to cover with him, a beast heavy blindwater list with barny isn't bad either. If there is any problem with how minions is structured in champions it's that if you want to take a pig caster he must be your wwff list, and you can only have 1 pig caster in a pairing compared to having 2 gator casters.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Dec 10, 2018 1:33:52 GMT
At least I'm not the only one who thinks it's actually pretty awful. The bottom line for me is that I just don't see any point in making a separate format that limits the casters and themes we can play to... basically what we're already playing anyway. And it's even worse when that's only true for half of us and the other factions are a whole rung (or two) lower on the ladder. It's funny that you mention the Merc roster specifically because IMO that is the best of them all in terms of what a Champions roster should be. Craft the rosters in such a way that makes for its own balanced metagame, yes, but get us playing something different. And don't put any of it on autopilot. If a theme or caster needs to leave the roster after only one season, then do that. The limited factions are their own mess. It's basically impossible to give them a balanced roster unless they never change it, and maybe not even then. I almost wish it were possible to exclude them. I'd love a format where I wouldn't have to play against Grymkin, CG, and COC, and I'm sure that Infernals will be an unholy pain in the ass too. Pun intended. I say all of this knowing that the only way the Trollbloods roster could be stronger is if Grissel 2 swapped out for Madrak 1, and she's no slouch herself. Oh, I agree. If everything was of a similar power level to mercs that'd be interesting, but I don't think that gels with their desire to have each faction's new caster/theme coming out of CID in the rotation. Like, any Circle roster with Iona/Devhost was going to be a silly ADR season. Personally, I was hoping for some more moderate-strong DevHost casters (Morv1, Baldur1) and some decent CoTW casters (Mac1? I'd love an excuse to play him again). That'd give me an excuse to play some things I might otherwise not have played. This seems like the worst of both worlds, though, where some factions get 'interesting' ADR lineups that force them off their standard masters pairs, and other just...get the 2 best lists in their faction? |
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Dec 10, 2018 2:10:39 GMT
So, here’s my theory.
1. Typically, they want to include the new stuff in the most recent ADR because it’s fresh and shiny
2. Because of CID, the new stuff generally ends up being top tier or close to it.
So, is it any surprise that the likes of Skarre3, Kolgrimma, and Iona are all new, powerful, and on ADR? And that other new (or fresh out of CID) power casters like Anamag and Maelok were just on the last ADR?
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Dec 10, 2018 2:53:45 GMT
So, here’s my theory. 1. Typically, they want to include the new stuff in the most recent ADR because it’s fresh and shiny 2. Because of CID, the new stuff generally ends up being top tier or close to it. So, is it any surprise that the likes of Skarre3, Kolgrimma, and Iona are all new, powerful, and on ADR? And that other new (or fresh out of CID) power casters like Anamag and Maelok were just on the last ADR? I mean, I’m fine with a couple of new and powerful things being in ADR. Not every roster needs to be 4 B-C list Casters. At the same time having your entire roster consist of 4 of a faction’s Top 5 is lame. That circle roster is basically the same as Cryx getting a roster of: Skarre1 Skarre3 Asphyxious3 Deneghra2 Slaughter Fleet Infernal Machines or Trolls getting: Kolgrimma Borka2 Madrak1 Calandra Band of Heroes Power of Dhunia Literally the only way to make that Circle Roster better is to drop Secret Masters for Bones. The pair that just won WMW was Iona DH & Kreuger2 SM. Some of the best players out there, could pick from any caster/theme and that’s the pair that won. Why is that exact caster/theme pair now included in the limited format? |
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Post by LoS Jaden on Dec 10, 2018 4:03:04 GMT
So, here’s my theory. 1. Typically, they want to include the new stuff in the most recent ADR because it’s fresh and shiny 2. Because of CID, the new stuff generally ends up being top tier or close to it. So, is it any surprise that the likes of Skarre3, Kolgrimma, and Iona are all new, powerful, and on ADR? And that other new (or fresh out of CID) power casters like Anamag and Maelok were just on the last ADR? I mean, I’m fine with a couple of new and powerful things being in ADR. Not every roster needs to be 4 B-C list Casters. At the same time having your entire roster consist of 4 of a faction’s Top 5 is lame. That circle roster is basically the same as Cryx getting a roster of: Skarre1 Skarre3 Asphyxious3 Deneghra2 Slaughter Fleet Infernal Machines or Trolls getting: Kolgrimma Borka2 Madrak1 Calandra Band of Heroes Power of Dhunia Literally the only way to make that Circle Roster better is to drop Secret Masters for Bones. The pair that just won WMW was Iona DH & Kreuger2 SM. Some of the best players out there, could pick from any caster/theme and that’s the pair that won. Why is that exact caster/theme pair now included in the limited format? Point of interest, not that I think the Circle ADR isn't ridiculous, but the pairing for WMW was determined 20 minutes before list lock because bret wanted a list that would murder Cygnar in round one. We're pretty sure that SM Krueger 2 is worse than bones by a fair margin, but it's better into Haley 3 and Iona which is all we cared about. Source: built the list with Bret at WMW But yes, Circle ADR is ludicrous. I really don't get why it's so stacked. |
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Post by Charistoph on Dec 10, 2018 4:08:36 GMT
Skorne got the 2 lead Warcasters associated with their recent CID and keep 2 of what we had before..?
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Post by oncomingstorm on Dec 10, 2018 5:22:43 GMT
So, here’s my theory. 1. Typically, they want to include the new stuff in the most recent ADR because it’s fresh and shiny 2. Because of CID, the new stuff generally ends up being top tier or close to it. So, is it any surprise that the likes of Skarre3, Kolgrimma, and Iona are all new, powerful, and on ADR? And that other new (or fresh out of CID) power casters like Anamag and Maelok were just on the last ADR? I mean, I’m fine with a couple of new and powerful things being in ADR. Not every roster needs to be 4 B-C list Casters. At the same time having your entire roster consist of 4 of a faction’s Top 5 is lame. That circle roster is basically the same as Cryx getting a roster of: Skarre1 Skarre3 Asphyxious3 Deneghra2 Slaughter Fleet Infernal Machines or Trolls getting: Kolgrimma Borka2 Madrak1 Calandra Band of Heroes Power of Dhunia Literally the only way to make that Circle Roster better is to drop Secret Masters for Bones. The pair that just won WMW was Iona DH & Kreuger2 SM. Some of the best players out there, could pick from any caster/theme and that’s the pair that won. Why is that exact caster/theme pair now included in the limited format? I mean, sure. But just...please have a coherent way of determining ADR rotations? Either go with a bunch of casters that don't see tournament play (because seriously, otherwise why not Masters?) and try to create an interesting limited metagame by taking out some of the main predators/gear checks on list building...or lean into the 'this is basically limited Masters' and give everyone their best stuff. Like, I'm going to be riding this Circle ADR for the next 6 months, but it's not exactly fair to players of other factions not to have access to a comparably powerful ADR. Especially if it's going to be the Iron Gauntlet format. |
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Dec 10, 2018 5:31:00 GMT
Skorne got the 2 lead Warcasters associated with their recent CID and keep 2 of what we had before..? You also got your most recently buffed theme and your most popular one. :P FYI, all Skorne-related decisions at PP are procedurally generated by an older version of the computer that named the Emperor That Pays For Boys. |
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Post by Charistoph on Dec 10, 2018 5:58:44 GMT
Skorne got the 2 lead Warcasters associated with their recent CID and keep 2 of what we had before..? You also got your most recently buffed theme and your most popular one.  FYI, all Skorne-related decisions at PP are procedurally generated by an older version of the computer that named the Emperor That Pays For Boys. Yeah, I mentioned that in the very first part of the sentence... I'm just a bit baffled as to why they kept two from the last year. I'm not terribly familiar with the rest, over all, but seriously? |
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Dec 10, 2018 6:52:47 GMT
I mean, I’m fine with a couple of new and powerful things being in ADR... I mean, sure. But just...please have a coherent way of determining ADR rotations? Either go with a bunch of casters that don't see tournament play (because seriously, otherwise why not Masters?) and try to create an interesting limited metagame by taking out some of the main predators/gear checks on list building...or lean into the 'this is basically limited Masters' and give everyone their best stuff. Like, I'm going to be riding this Circle ADR for the next 6 months, but it's not exactly fair to players of other factions not to have access to a comparably powerful ADR. Especially if it's going to be the Iron Gauntlet format. Just a quick quibble- POD no longer functions in the new scenario system so we've finally given up on it, and Kriel Company is only viable in very specific circumstances. We will play it for the odd question list to shake things up as Jaden did, or as an answer to dudespam if that gets beyond what Band of Heroes can handle. That's about it. Seriously, the only way this roster could possibly be stronger is if we had Madrak 1. Now, that said, I think we're all on the same page here, and you've both elaborated nicely on exactly why. So this roster will be in place at Lock and Load and IG there will be Champions... I had forgotten about that. Yeah, that's not going to be pretty... I can see doing a power roster just for that occasion, but this is a power roster for a little over half of the factions and a third of them shouldn't even bother. Yeah, that's just awful. I feel silly just now realizing this, but while I can see the impetus to put all the newest toys on the roster, honestly there's no need. At all. If those same things happen to be the best choices for a balanced and interesting limited metagame, that's great, but this should not be any kind of priority in choosing the rosters. Think about it. We're going to play that stuff anyway, and a lot. Everybody wants the new hotness, and not just because its more likely to be stronger, but even just for the novelty or because we want to see for ourselves how well we really like it, or we're completionists with our main factions. It's not like the Champions roster is going to increase the sales of new models appreciably. Seriously, reply to this if you had not planned to buy Cyrenia until you saw that she was on the Menoth roster. See what I mean? But I can see how the roster might encourage me to buy some older models or make some of the older players feel better about getting something off the shelf. I was wanting to play my Fennblades again anyway. |
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Post by beardmonk on Dec 10, 2018 8:57:12 GMT
How much does ADR actually affect people here? I never bother as I don't play in high level competitions etc.
Just a point of interest, who actively uses ADR here?
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Dec 10, 2018 9:01:01 GMT
I mean, sure. But just...please have a coherent way of determining ADR rotations? Either go with a bunch of casters that don't see tournament play (because seriously, otherwise why not Masters?) and try to create an interesting limited metagame by taking out some of the main predators/gear checks on list building...or lean into the 'this is basically limited Masters' and give everyone their best stuff. Like, I'm going to be riding this Circle ADR for the next 6 months, but it's not exactly fair to players of other factions not to have access to a comparably powerful ADR. Especially if it's going to be the Iron Gauntlet format. Just a quick quibble- POD no longer functions in the new scenario system so we've finally given up on it, and Kriel Company is only viable in very specific circumstances. PoD barely functioning is the point, since IMO Secret Masters also barely functions. It just bothers me that we were told Deneghra2 couldn’t be in the season 8 ADR because she’s too format warping, and yet somehow Circle’s current roster isn’t format warping? Building a list pair that can play into Iona DH + Kreuger2 anything is hard enough when you’re not limited to 5 Casters & 2 themes, but I look at some of those rosters and wonder why bother playing in champions events if I play those factions? I don’t even know what I’d bring with that Cryx roster to play into Iona DH + Kreuger2 SM, let alone WTF Mercs, Grymkin, or Minions are actually suppose to drop into Circle. |
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FYI, all Skorne-related decisions at PP are procedurally generated by an older version of the computer that named the Emperor That Pays For Boys.