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Post by mcdermott on Dec 2, 2018 7:39:46 GMT
I'm not sure what game you lot were playing... The last 18 months of MKII was the best wargaming time of my life. Fantastic game balance, great variety of viable casters / lists, honestly the best state I've ever seen any game in. I seem to remember complaints of an ever-ramping up power scaling at the time. Sure, it was still more balanced than GW, but that really isn't saying much.
But I guess that depends on which faction you played and which central character you preferred from them or rejected from them.
Yeah that body and soul theme force was sure indicative of health and balance.
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Post by slaughtersun on Dec 2, 2018 8:05:58 GMT
Trolls EE were also quite balanced... and Vayl2 Machinations.
I started the game with mk2. It was a brutal unbalanced thing that got by because everything (or just about everyyhing) was over the top. It didnt mean it wasnt fun.
The game as is today is more balanced than it has ever been. The rules are solid. The CiD process has been good even if it has its flaws and you may or may not agree with themes but thats the way the designers envision the game (and they are the ones who have -orshould- the long term vision of the game.
Lets try and enjoy the game as best as we can and stop the doom and gloom. Theres already enough of that in our real lives ee dont need it in our hobbies.
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Dec 2, 2018 8:40:41 GMT
Will Schick, Lyle Lowry, and Will Pagani, all very close to each other.
Mk3 has been a cluster since its beginning. Bad rules, bad interaction between soles and customer support and the community, screwing over retailers who actually bought cards and books, entirely unplayable factions, loss of Skull Island, then NQ, the press gang (which was what i think is the catalyst for all of this) and their very own Forge World that released models that damaged their reputation more than it likely helped. I mean, this has been a literal shitstorm for PP.
If I had to hedge a bet, I would guess that the business is in full on retraction mode. No one from PP is saying anything and no one wants to is my bet.
The game isn't picking up any new players, and the secondary market is in the low 20% range for resale, which is normally a fairly healthy indicator of how well the game is doing. CID has proven to be nothing more than codex creep times 911. Add to that the fact that 40k is probably in its best iteration in 15 or 20 years, and Age of Sigmar is just pulling players away with better models and cheaper armies (i know, i didn't believe it either) and this looks like PP is beginning the slow decline into death.
PP needs to get their head out of their ass. I love WMH, i think the game is the best game (Mechanically) for miniatures games on the market, but its struggling right now due to poor management and not listening to their fans, and catering to the top 10% of players who exist in the good old boys club.
Feels bad. I think they may have time to get this turned around, but I'm concerned and not sure its going to happen any time soon.
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Post by mcdermott on Dec 2, 2018 9:00:21 GMT
Yeah lots of businesses release a new army and a pair of novels while they're in retraction mode.
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Post by Aegis on Dec 2, 2018 12:02:54 GMT
I wish him best luck.
That said, looking at the direction WarmaHordes is going since pretty much when he started to be a developer, I honestly can't say I'm sad to see some changes in Privateer Press, and in my opinion someone into PP (either Pagani himself or someone else) noticed the issues too, and that's the reason behind this goodbye.
From what I see, it's about two years that PP keeps milking the cow as much as it can, leaving behind fluff, past promises, and trimming everything that doesn't give immediate return (like the GdR or NQ).
I really hope this change will be the start of a new cycle that brings back what I loved of the game.
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Post by cainuslupus on Dec 2, 2018 12:19:43 GMT
I wish him best luck. That said, looking at the direction WarmaHordes is going since pretty much when he started to be a developer, I honestly can't say I'm sad to see some changes in Privateer Press, and in my opinion someone into PP (either Pagani himself or someone else) noticed the issues too, and that's the reason behind this goodbye. From what I see, it's about two years that PP keeps milking the cow as much as it can, leaving behind fluff, past promises, and trimming everything that doesn't give immediate return (like the GdR or NQ). I really hope this change will be the start of a new cycle that brings back what I loved of the game. I would loved this to be true.
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Post by Charistoph on Dec 2, 2018 15:32:08 GMT
Mk3 has been a cluster since its beginning. Bad rules, bad interaction between soles and customer support and the community, screwing over retailers who actually bought cards and books, entirely unplayable factions, loss of Skull Island, then NQ, the press gang (which was what i think is the catalyst for all of this) and their very own Forge World that released models that damaged their reputation more than it likely helped. I mean, this has been a literal shitstorm for PP. Press Gang drop wasn't a catalyst for this since all the Mk3 rules were out long before then and was a reaction to a judgement against a competing company that they feared might apply to them. That's actually a pretty standard business practice of taking advantage of another's court cases. It sure beats having to go through the court process yourself.
Everything else had their own reasons behind them which had zero relationship to the Press Gang program. Print medium is largely dead, so Skull Island and NQ weren't going very far, even if they were consistently better than GW's equivalents for years. BAHI's production issues and shipping challenges have zero connection to the Press Gang format, and are an issue of international trade more than home-grown advertisers.
The loss of certain aspects of the forums were unfortunate, but thankfully they weren't dropped all together like GW did in ages past (though, to be fair, to call the GW forums a dumpster fire is being an insult to dumpster fires).
And factions weren't unplayable, they just didn't play the same or didn't have as much power as before. Skorne actually played decently, it was just boring and unreactive (statements from regular Skorne players).
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Dec 2, 2018 17:21:40 GMT
Mk3 has multiple serious problems, but it is still the best the game itself has ever been. I do worry that too many players are just going to take the mental shortcut to "Mk3 killed the game" and throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I had my doubts about Schick, but Soles is so much worse, and it sounds like Wilson does literally nothing but Female Dog at the creatives just often enough to make sure no one forgets about him, and he spends the rest of his time hiding somewhere being creepy.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Dec 2, 2018 21:26:31 GMT
Yes, Riotquest was a dumb idea and should never have made it past the concept stage Oh come on!. How the Firetruck did you reach that conclusion by only watching, an admittedly cringy, teaser?
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Dec 2, 2018 21:34:30 GMT
Yeah lots of businesses release a new army and a pair of novels while they're in retraction mode. They do when they have already allocated capital to the project and can expect a short-term RoI
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Dec 2, 2018 21:45:52 GMT
Anyway, at this point a sellout and a reboot would not surprise me, it's how I felt since the PG program closed.
But, more than releasing more fluff.
More than fixing unused models.
More than killing CID "power creep".
What this game needs is a serious cut of SKU bloat and repackaging it in a FLGS friendly manner.
Which is probably something the new management will do "we're not wasting anymore resources on things nobody is playing and nobody wants to buy".
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Dec 2, 2018 21:53:58 GMT
Mk3 has been a cluster since its beginning. Bad rules, bad interaction between soles and customer support and the community, screwing over retailers who actually bought cards and books, entirely unplayable factions, loss of Skull Island, then NQ, the press gang (which was what i think is the catalyst for all of this) and their very own Forge World that released models that damaged their reputation more than it likely helped. I mean, this has been a literal shitstorm for PP. Press Gang drop wasn't a catalyst for this since all the Mk3 rules were out long before then and was a reaction to a judgement against a competing company that they feared might apply to them. That's actually a pretty standard business practice of taking advantage of another's court cases. It sure beats having to go through the court process yourself. Everything else had their own reasons behind them which had zero relationship to the Press Gang program. Print medium is largely dead, so Skull Island and NQ weren't going very far, even if they were consistently better than GW's equivalents for years. BAHI's production issues and shipping challenges have zero connection to the Press Gang format, and are an issue of international trade more than home-grown advertisers. The loss of certain aspects of the forums were unfortunate, but thankfully they weren't dropped all together like GW did in ages past (though, to be fair, to call the GW forums a dumpster fire is being an insult to dumpster fires). And factions weren't unplayable, they just didn't play the same or didn't have as much power as before. Skorne actually played decently, it was just boring and unreactive (statements from regular Skorne players).
You're right. what I should have said was "if PP is in any kind of real financial trouble, I think the loss of the PG is the biggest contributor to them". cause that's what I meant, and it totally didn't come out that way. I would argue that a faction with less than 10% of its roster as playable models is unplayable. Orboros survived on wormwood and una 2 and the rotterhorn. the rest of that faction, for a long while, was trash. trolls lived on....ummm....i guess the mauler? before themes ragnor was good. after themes, it was really bad. Don't get me started on skorne. that faction was atrocious, and let's be fair, legion wouldn't have survived without lylyth 3 heading up their tournament scene. and the balance between hordes and WM was pretty poor, and that is an understatement. I love the game, even though i sound like i dont. I was a PG for a long time and put a lot of sweat equity into the game as well as literally thousands of my own money volunteering, buying terrain, clocks, ect ect.... I want to see them turn around, but i have to be honest here, they are going to have to do better than they are.
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Post by sgtshamrock on Dec 2, 2018 22:12:18 GMT
I truly hope PP is not going the way of Spartan Games. It would break my heart, I love this company, this game, and the fluff.
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Post by mcdermott on Dec 2, 2018 22:32:47 GMT
Yeah lots of businesses release a new army and a pair of novels while they're in retraction mode. They do when they have already allocated capital to the project and can expect a short-term RoI Infernals were announced in november, wont hit CID til march, wont get finalized rules till june and wont be finished rolling out til september. Nearly a year out isn't really a short term RoI Look at 8th ed GW for how it works when a company is dumping a line, or AEG's L5R for how it looks when they're selling off a property.
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Post by hocestbellum on Dec 2, 2018 22:53:50 GMT
Anyway, at this point a sellout and a reboot would not surprise me, it's how I felt since the PG program closed. But, more than releasing more fluff. More than fixing unused models. More than killing CID "power creep". What this game needs is a serious cut of SKU bloat and repackaging it in a FLGS friendly manner. Which is probably something the new management will do "we're not wasting anymore resources on things nobody is playing and nobody wants to buy". You've mentioned this a few times in various threads; what would that cutting entail? I know nothing about how all this sort of thing works. The implication is that you just go 'X Y Z are no longer in production or legal in game', but what happens with existing stock? Could this trimming be achieved by repackaging? If you could only buy WGI as a single box containing a 10 man unit with UA and 3 rockets, you've effectively cut the three entities down to one, right? Or are you saying it needs to be more severe than that?
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