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Post by Trollock on Nov 19, 2018 7:13:48 GMT
Since i jumped ship to circle i have been playing quite a bit of BoO, and i can confidently say that the reason that list works so much better than PoD is that it has sentry stones. Not for svoring so much as for contesting AND for killing lone contesting models. When some ine runs a single infantry dude to contest my zone, of i play BoO i activate my freshly minted manikin, boost bith my free fury an kill it. If i play PiD i guess i charge with my 15 point Mauler, or shoot with my 19 point bomber?
Im not in the camp that our beasts need to ve much cheaper. Some lights and the Blitzer does, but that is not the main issue. The main issue is that i have no cheap options for contesting and for killing the contesting models. Whelps could be good enough for contesting as they are free, but they are also slow, and unless an opponent spawns one at a very inopportune time (the best feeling ever hehe) they will probably not reach where they need to be. They also do nothing fo clearing your zones obviously.
I do not really think it is realistic to change PoD enough to make it handle SR2018. Drastic changes to the runeshapers like AD, permanent cover and probably making them cheaper too could perhaps do it, but i find it more likely that the SR environment could change. This would help shift the meta too (not that it is stagnant in general imo) and that is something PP likes.
I like SR2018 a LOT but it has invalidated several lists. If 2019 was more brick friendly id be happy. Then you could change back in 2020 abd so on...
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Nov 19, 2018 7:47:40 GMT
I would be fine with making the scenario elements less spread out in general, but not with changing the system itself. If they swap in some new scenarios that could help.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467 
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Post by snoozer on Nov 19, 2018 10:30:24 GMT
I have been doing just fine with this:
War Room Army
Trollblood - Ragnor
Theme: The Power of Dhunia
3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Ragnor Skysplitter, the Runemaster - WB: +30
- Trollkin Runebearer - PC: 0
- Dire Troll Bomber - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 19)
- Dire Troll Mauler - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11)
- Earthborn Dire Troll - PC: 14
- Mulg the Ancient - PC: 22
- Troll Axer - PC: 10
Janissa Stonetide - PC: 0
Troll Whelps - 5 Whelps: 0
Lanyssa Ryssyl, Nyss Sorceress - PC: 4
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9
- Stone Scribe Elder - PC: 3
Runeshapers - PC: 9
THEME: The Power of Dhunia
Runeshapers are a little underwhelming, but they survive with the feat to then kill infantry. If the enemy plays Beast/Jack Brick, I am happy with Earthborn alpha then feat. If they Spam dudes it gets very technical, but they usually cannot win attrition.
I have upgraded the List and yet to test this:
War Room Army
Trollblood - Ragnor Szenario
Theme: The Power of Dhunia
3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Ragnor Skysplitter, the Runemaster - WB: +30
- Trollkin Runebearer - PC: 0
- Dire Troll Bomber - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 19)
- Dire Troll Mauler - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11)
- Earthborn Dire Troll - PC: 14
- Mulg the Ancient - PC: 22
- Troll Axer - PC: 10
Troll Whelps - 5 Whelps: 0
Gremlin Swarm - PC: 3
Northkin Shaman - PC: 0
Northkin Shaman - PC: 4
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9
- Stone Scribe Elder - PC: 3
Dhunian Knot - Leader & 2 Grunts: 6
THEME: The Power of Dhunia
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This tries to keep the core list, but adds tools against dudes and for scenario presence.
The knot helps with hitting Aoes on Ragnor and the Runebearer, help with Bomber Fury management they can score and maybe kill a dude. The shamans can spray models out of zones and can be used as mat fixers. The Gremlin swarm should help a lot with Scenario.
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Post by Bomma on Nov 19, 2018 10:55:21 GMT
The restriction of Troll models 'needing' the stone and the fact that none of the solos or other units support the beasts in anyway really stops PoD doing anything useful, add in the high point cost of heavies and lights coupled with useless animi just turn it into a dumpster fire.
PoD Benefits -
Runeshapers FAU ?
Every 25 points a free solo/whelps.
Knot gain serenity?
Upkeep spells start up for the first turn of the game.
B.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Nov 19, 2018 15:41:34 GMT
snoozer What do you think of this then? conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0bfLjn9Djp0h0j0jjq2Q7d6RjO0l0mTrollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Power of Dhunia [Ragnor 1] Ragnor Skysplitter, the Runemaster [+30] - Dire Troll Brawler [16] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Mulg the Ancient [22] - Troll Axer [10] - Troll Bouncer [9] - Troll Bouncer [9] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Feralgeist [2] Janissa Stonetide [0(4)] Troll Whelps [0(4)] Gatorman Bokor & Bog Trog Swamp Shamblers [10] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Stone Scribe Elder [3]
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Nov 19, 2018 16:59:31 GMT
I do like the idea, altough I would probably try to keep the 4th Heavy. Especially with Ragnor, the Earthborn can get Hunters Mark + 2 Sp from Rush and then +2 from difficult terrain. Sarting with Pulverizer it hits reasonably hard and does a nice "double Alpha". The Bomber is actually prett yimportant as it sits on "that other Zone" on the side, just within the stone and able to shoot / block one side. Bouncers are a nice Idea tough! Then you would probably run into enemies face and feat. This make the list less flexible. I also ran one Bouncer instead of the Runeshapers, but you really get into trouble with the Fury management. The Shamblers might also work - you could take them with a Gremlin Swarm for the Runehsapers + Lanyssa and have a nice list! |
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Post by Trollock on Nov 19, 2018 19:51:13 GMT
snoozer What do you think of this then? conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0bfLjn9Djp0h0j0jjq2Q7d6RjO0l0mTrollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Power of Dhunia [Ragnor 1] Ragnor Skysplitter, the Runemaster [+30] - Dire Troll Brawler [16] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Mulg the Ancient [22] - Troll Axer [10] - Troll Bouncer [9] - Troll Bouncer [9] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Feralgeist [2] Janissa Stonetide [0(4)] Troll Whelps [0(4)] Gatorman Bokor & Bog Trog Swamp Shamblers [10] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Stone Scribe Elder [3] Perhaps double whelps is even betyer here. You have bouncers to range out that the opponent has to kill and that presents more options for really nasty whelp placement. They are basically as good at holding flags as janissa with the dig in. Id totally leave her at home for more whelps i think. They also make more shamblers. Oh, and pluverize acrually works on the bokor, right? |
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Post by Trollock on Nov 19, 2018 19:52:05 GMT
Change brawler and FG to EBDT and whelps is also an option
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Nov 19, 2018 20:05:24 GMT
From day 1 I thought Serenity added to Dhunian Knot was really a poor modification - one box low ARM model within 1" of beast(s)? Here, let me place my models better for you to destroy... Also as I've been playing Circle, Shifting Stones are a much more tenable Serenity option.
Serenity on Runeshapers would have made sense. Dig-in blast protection with multiple boxes to perhaps survive an e-leap.
Khadorian Doomreavers dropping in points, dramatically in CID, have me hopeful that Runeshapers may also get a look/points reduction.
Dhunian Knot could just be a 'free' option, considering their nearly 100% support role, (When is the last time you/I put Puppet Master on an enemy model?) and the seriously limited options for FF units in PoD. There is now precedent for = or > 6pts 'free'.
If POD 'spread' is THE problem in scenario play, Long Leash on Night Troll and/or other light warbeast(s) could be a real solution, many of us have been asking for, for years. Swamp Troll with Long Leash would provide a ranged counter to opposing 'contest with a dude' tactic(s).
In casual play, POD is fine for me, as disregarding scenario zones/objectives allows positioning to support concentrated assassination efforts from a limited model count.
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Post by Trollock on Nov 19, 2018 23:21:56 GMT
joedjWait, you actually play with NO sceanrio? I didnt think any one ever did that hehe 
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Nov 20, 2018 1:53:02 GMT
snoozer What do you think of this then? conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0bfLjn9Djp0h0j0jjq2Q7d6RjO0l0mTrollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Power of Dhunia [Ragnor 1] Ragnor Skysplitter, the Runemaster [+30] - Dire Troll Brawler [16] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Mulg the Ancient [22] - Troll Axer [10] - Troll Bouncer [9] - Troll Bouncer [9] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Feralgeist [2] Janissa Stonetide [0(4)] Troll Whelps [0(4)] Gatorman Bokor & Bog Trog Swamp Shamblers [10] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Stone Scribe Elder [3] Perhaps double whelps is even betyer here. You have bouncers to range out that the opponent has to kill and that presents more options for really nasty whelp placement. They are basically as good at holding flags as janissa with the dig in. Id totally leave her at home for more whelps i think. They also make more shamblers. Oh, and pluverize acrually works on the bokor, right? Yeah, it does. Since he can boost attacks, that might be a good play sometimes. |
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Nov 20, 2018 11:20:05 GMT
I find it curious that PoD is so doom and gloom. This used to be the one theme to play and everybody was happy with it. What changed? We got SoN and a BoH upgrade. 2 scenarios changed I think and there is a meta shift. The theme itself did not get worse (ok maybe serenity is worse than +2 Thr) and the models also only got better. If it's just the meta then this should be fine. I also don't see that much of a power creep happening. So is PoD really in such a bad spot? Part of this feels like your everyday negative internet analysis that makes things much worse than they are. Maybe do the one thing in WmH to get things into oerspective: just play the theme, pay attention to its weaknesses and strengths and see how that turns out  |
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Post by Trollock on Nov 20, 2018 13:26:41 GMT
I find it curious that PoD is so doom and gloom. This used to be the one theme to play and everybody was happy with it. What changed? We got SoN and a BoH upgrade. 2 scenarios changed I think and there is a meta shift. The theme itself did not get worse (ok maybe serenity is worse than +2 Thr) and the models also only got better. If it's just the meta then this should be fine. I also don't see that much of a power creep happening. So is PoD really in such a bad spot? Part of this feels like your everyday negative internet analysis that makes things much worse than they are. Maybe do the one thing in WmH to get things into oerspective: just play the theme, pay attention to its weaknesses and strengths and see how that turns out The thing that changed is steamroller. We loved PoD back in SR2016 (that lasted extra ling if you remember). Then SR2017 happened, and SR2018 exaserbated the problem. Also, we got PoD when many other factions had NO themes. We enjoyed free solos ehile they did not. Then every one got themes with free stuff and SR made our bricks way less viable. |
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daveg
Light Addition
Posts: 67
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Post by daveg on Nov 20, 2018 15:26:38 GMT
My limited experience has been that it just has little flexibility. It suffers in scenario but can hold on, has good to decent assassination potential (where dice are always fickle), but most damming is it doesn't tank hard enough round to round to play the attrition game that it wants. The meta has a lot of armor cracking with the boogeymen of Gaspy3, Ossrum, Maelok (reduced), Armored Core, Primal Terrors (all of which bring plenty armor cracking of their own). I just haven't found that it bullies with tankiness as much as I expected.
If the four win conditions are Clock, Scenario, Assassination, Attrition and the list doesn't excel in any one of those with a heavy weakness into at least one, it's concerning.
I do think use of minions could help reduce the scenario weakness and I also think that the current heavy armor cracking meta will pass. I also think I'm bad and learning trolls, so take this particular internet opinion with a bigger grain of salt.
edit: I've played Ragnor and Grissel2 but both with a Mountain King (cause that model is gorgeous). My lackluster opinion of the theme might be more caused by the MK rather than POD. There are a lot of builds I haven't gotten to put on the table.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Nov 20, 2018 16:08:33 GMT
I do agree to that, but I actually did not play SR 2016 a lot and startet with 2017. So maybe I am just used to it and thats why I do not see it as a problem. (The same thing that happend with the EBDT - once you (yes you Trollock  ) started to put that guy on the table, he suddenly looked a lot better, than the Dire Troll that kept being compared to what is looked like in MKII. For me playing PoD was always a scenario struggle and a struggle to remove models that hide far on the side or in the back. I think it is managable non the less but I do prefer to play PoD into brick-Lists for that reason. Attrition wise the list is great. Maybe building for its weaknesses will work out (the list above that I still have to test at some point). |
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) started to put that guy on the table, he suddenly looked a lot better, than the Dire Troll that kept being compared to what is looked like in MKII.