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Post by Big Fat Troll on Nov 18, 2018 11:51:13 GMT
There has been some discussion about this here recently and I thought I'd start a new thread to focus just on this topic. It's just that I have this on the brain having played Power of Dhunia in two tournaments this month and several times over the past few months and I do keep feeling stymied. I don't want the thread to be only about my own ideas so I will wait a bit to get into those, but I have just about given up trying to make the theme work as it stands now. I do think that the scenarios and the opposing lists that do work in them are the main general reason why POD doesn't work anymore, but I also think that the new scenario system is completely superior to the old Race to 5 system and I would quit the game if they ever went back to that.
For that matter, there are battlegroup themes that do work just fine now. Most of them do, really. So it can be done, it's just a question of how. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.
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bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Nov 18, 2018 12:26:51 GMT
Man, you sure spam this forum a lot dude, no offense... Yes PoD is bad. Warbeasts are too expensive to compete with Warmachine battlegroup heavy armies. How to do it currently? impossible imo. Fix runeshapers, add new unit to the theme, add better support solos. Give janissa her wall back. The possibilities are many.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Nov 18, 2018 12:42:36 GMT
Man, you sure spam this forum a lot dude, no offense... Well it starts conversations and that is always a good thing in my book. Especially since I felt the forum was getting a bit sleepy a few weeks back.
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bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Nov 18, 2018 18:26:48 GMT
Yet no one cares enough to reply to the topic - not even you I'm just saying.. PoD has been discussed extensively for the past year. Seems like we all agree that it doesn't work at this point.
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Post by grabsnikk on Nov 18, 2018 18:30:56 GMT
PoD has been discussed extensively for the past year. Seems like we all agree that it doesn't work at this point. Which is a massive shame since Kriel Company is not really competitive either with its gaping flaws. Pretty much means we are stuck to playing Band of Heroes and Storm of the North until PP gets their act into gear.
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dabomma
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 4
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Post by dabomma on Nov 18, 2018 18:53:26 GMT
Plz dont forget about Madrak 3
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bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Nov 18, 2018 19:13:46 GMT
Hahaha you guys, already derailing the topic Classic!
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bluebeard
Junior Strategist
crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women
Posts: 293
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Post by bluebeard on Nov 18, 2018 20:29:30 GMT
I have not seen Nyss being used in many PoD lists. They are a great unit imo, and I use them in my own lists. Mainly I use them for contesting the opposite board side of my warlock. They can work really well independently. Horgle1 can also be included with a pyre or slag troll to back up those Nyss. This would leave a smaller area for your main BG to cover.
So on a 75pt list this leaves 44+BG points for the main BG. Here is a list I am going to be trying over the upcoming Holiday.
War Room Army Theme: The Power of Dhunia 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Ragnor Skysplitter, the Runemaster - WB: +30 - Trollkin Runebearer - PC: 0 - Dire Troll Bomber - PC: 19 - Dire Troll Brawler - PC: 16 - Mountain King - PC: 36 (Battlegroup Points Used: 30) - Troll Basher - PC: 7
Horgle Ironstrike - PC: 0 - Pyre Troll - PC: 8 Janissa Stonetide - PC: 0
Cylena Raefyll & Nyss Hunters - Cylena & 9 Grunts: 19
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Post by Trollock on Nov 18, 2018 20:42:20 GMT
I have not seen Nyss being used in many PoD lists. They are a great unit imo, and I use them in my own lists. Mainly I use them for contesting the opposite board side of my warlock. They can work really well independently. Horgle1 can also be included with a pyre or slag troll to back up those Nyss. This would leave a smaller area for your main BG to cover. So on a 75pt list this leaves 44+BG points for the main BG. Here is a list I am going to be trying over the upcoming Holiday. War Room Army Theme: The Power of Dhunia 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Ragnor Skysplitter, the Runemaster - WB: +30 - Trollkin Runebearer - PC: 0 - Dire Troll Bomber - PC: 19 - Dire Troll Brawler - PC: 16 - Mountain King - PC: 36 (Battlegroup Points Used: 30) - Troll Basher - PC: 7 Horgle Ironstrike - PC: 0 - Pyre Troll - PC: 8 Janissa Stonetide - PC: 0 Cylena Raefyll & Nyss Hunters - Cylena & 9 Grunts: 19 So... No kriel stone? I did some testing with grim 1 pod ane no stone, but there the idea was not to get hit. Ragnor seems like he wants to get hit, or at least that he cant prevent it. I think croaks are similar but easier to fit in together with the stone ..
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bluebeard
Junior Strategist
crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women
Posts: 293
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Post by bluebeard on Nov 18, 2018 21:03:17 GMT
Yes, no stone. I know the armor is taking a hit because of it, but I can play more open and not pay the stone tax. Also rage is there to compensate for the lack of Stone Strength.
I like the croak idea, but I don't own them. I'll have to prox them to try it out.
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Post by mydnight on Nov 18, 2018 21:26:00 GMT
Allow Dhunian Knot as free choice. Runeshapers should gain something useful like re-rolls to attack rolls, advanced deploy; or we should be allowed to place a wall.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Nov 19, 2018 2:20:47 GMT
I think that Trollock has summed it up better than I have in those other threads. The real problem is not a lack of units to score zones so much as an inability to spread out and meaningfully contest anything without committing a warbeast. We can double up on Whelps and just keep throwing them in, but since they can't attack at all, they can't threaten free strikes. They also have victim stats, and we're supposed to be using them for fury management or to block charge lanes to beasts. One Whelp can run in to block 1 point pretty cheaply once or maybe sit on the back corner flag in Spread the Net or Mirage, but that's about it. It is a good option to have, but we can't rely on it.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Nov 19, 2018 2:59:17 GMT
About Runeshapers specifically: They can do very useful things, and they were not bad at the beginning of Mk3, but it turned out that they don't actually fit into their one theme very well and power creep has left them way behind. By current standards, they should be 7 points with no other changes, but what they really need is Advance Deployment. It's hard to use Dig In without it and this alone would make them much more relevant in scenario play, even without a reduction in point cost. Still, I think 8 points would be fair even then.
Then there's Janissa. I do like the hill, especially for Grim 1 and Grissel 2. I can see why they made that change, especially with the Earthborn being relatively cheaper, but the wall was just plain better. And 2x ARM 22 Pathfinder heavy warbeasts with help from an elite character solo for a total of 28 points is not beyond the current power curve, for good or ill.
What I would change about Runeshapers:
-Runeshapers themselves go to point cost 8 and gain AD. Even if they keep FA: U spamming them would be limited by the fact that they don't count toward freebies.
-Janissa gets the wall back and upgrades Leadership to Elite Cadre because Runeshapers need to be able to spread out a lot more. She can go up in cost to 5 if that helps, just in case she's not a freebie. This is a big deal and would need time in CID but the theme needs some kind of board control to protect our expensive beasts.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Nov 19, 2018 4:44:00 GMT
Next, the beasts themselves. I actually wouldn't change much.
Simple discounts: Blitzer to 14, Brawler to 15, Impaler to 9 (Nobody cares if the Battle Box is not exactly 0.) I'm honestly not sure about the Kings.
-I would actually increase the Night Troll to cost 8 and buff it to match- give it Extended CTRL, SPD 6, DEF 13, and Pathfinder. Then cut MAT to 5 but give it Murderous. Basically push it more into a clear role as a solo hunter, for its own sake but also to help POD's scenario presence.
-The Slag Troll should have an animus, even if all it does is grant immunity to corrosion and Erosion on the target's weapons, which the Slag itself already has.
And some quick thoughts on warlocks who could use a little help as it pertains to beasts:
-I had mentioned last month the idea of giving Madrak 3 Vet Leader and Attuned Spirit for light warbeasts.
-Calandra could simply stand to have more warbeast points.
Other Stuff:
-I'm not sure what to do about Horgle 1. If we're playing a warlock in POD, that is probably because of synergies that require beasts to be in that warlock's group. If we're playing a Pyre it's probably in part for Flaming Fists on the warlock. If we're playing a Slag then something has changed anyway.
-The Knot is well within what could be allowed as a theme freebie. This would help POD gun lines if nothing else.
-Likely Minion choices: Boomhowler & Co should be Partisan for Trollbloods and could stand to be cheaper. Cylena & the Nyss Hunters definitely should not be 19 points. More like 10/16. I love the Brigands except for the Skornergy between Dig In and Reposition. I'd rather see the Warlord give them AD instead of Repo, but I will let the Minion players weigh in on that.
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jarrow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 274
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Post by jarrow on Nov 19, 2018 6:49:23 GMT
I think free knot is good idea and would definitely see them more in action. And agree that 3p from def12 arm15 model is too much. I also think that PoD will see more time after we get Doomshaper0 on hordes 15y anniversary. (Not actually sure if Doomshaper would be the one, but I think he is most fit.)
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