|
Fall CID
Nov 13, 2018 18:26:36 GMT
via mobile
Post by jisidro on Nov 13, 2018 18:26:36 GMT
Sacred ward would probably demand a longer cid as they'd get massive options from a lot of casters. Point cost down enough? Or given the free option dynamics an improvement to the UA is desirable?
|
|
|
Post by jdeckert on Nov 13, 2018 18:40:25 GMT
Sacred ward would probably demand a longer cid as they'd get massive options from a lot of casters. Point cost down enough? Or given the free option dynamics an improvement to the UA is desirable? I think both. When looking at the free options in Wolves of Winter, none are particularly compelling. Making the UA better would go a long way for the theme and for doom reavers. I agree on sacred ward - doesn't seem fitting and with a short CID, we're probably a little limited. For week 1, I'd drop their points by two and increase their P+S by one. For the UA, granting concealment could be good. Or maybe a recursion mechanic like the old league UA. Granted: Blood Bound like the Hollowmen CA? Might need too much testing.
|
|
|
Post by Soul Samurai on Nov 13, 2018 18:51:24 GMT
Would it be more useful to gain a point of MAT rather than P+S?
|
|
|
Fall CID
Nov 13, 2018 18:57:05 GMT
via mobile
Post by jisidro on Nov 13, 2018 18:57:05 GMT
I don't see them going to pow 14 wm or base mat 8...
They are as good as they are cheap.
|
|
|
Fall CID
Nov 13, 2018 19:14:45 GMT
via mobile
Post by michael on Nov 13, 2018 19:14:45 GMT
Well, considering they have been P+S 12 this whole edition, you don’t have much to worry about.
|
|
|
Post by P'tit Nico on Nov 13, 2018 19:16:33 GMT
I don't see them going to pow 14 wm or base mat 8... They are as good as they are cheap. They went down to pow 12 in mk3, so they'd be going back to pow 13 with a point of POW.
|
|
|
Post by anderfreak on Nov 13, 2018 19:20:31 GMT
I don't see them going to pow 14 wm or base mat 8... They are as good as they are cheap. I could see them going back to P+S 13 but they really don't NEED it. They're great when they get to their target, but there's typically just not enough of them to make it there anymore. I sincerely doubt they'll do much more than a point adjustment, and I'd be perfectly happy with that. I'm more concerned about making sure the adjunct is useful because I'd really like to not have to waste my friendly merc solo on sylys with upkeep and spell heavy casters.
|
|
|
Post by michael on Nov 13, 2018 19:23:16 GMT
Sacred ward would probably demand a longer cid as they'd get massive options from a lot of casters. Point cost down enough? Or given the free option dynamics an improvement to the UA is desirable? It’s not that massive, and it’s not any worse than what both Skorne and Legion can already do with their comparable models: Fury Battle Lust Iron Flesh Tactical Supremacy Fire for Effect (......) Boundless Charge, Sentry (....), Retaliatory Strike, but only on the Greylord Escort (assuming only he is changed to Sacred Ward) Silence of Death Hand of Fate (already available in a much better version in Vlad1’s Signs & Portents) Shatter Storm Quicken Last Stand Ghost Walk Banishing Ward (......) Weald Secrets (.....) Out of those, you have the truly appealing ones, in roughly descending order of desirability: Battle Lust Fury Last Stand Silence of Death Iron Flesh Tactical Supremacy Ghost Walk ...everything else Out of those, other factions can already do that, and the combos are hardly tearing up the world... (Skorne has effectively Butcher1 in Xerxis1, and Kallus2 has Battle Lust for the Blighted Swordsmen, amongst other examples.)
|
|
|
Post by anderfreak on Nov 13, 2018 19:45:23 GMT
Sacred ward would probably demand a longer cid as they'd get massive options from a lot of casters. Point cost down enough? Or given the free option dynamics an improvement to the UA is desirable? It’s not that massive, and it’s not any worse than what both Skorne and Legion can already do with their comparable models: Fury Battle Lust Iron Flesh Tactical Supremacy Fire for Effect (......) Boundless Charge, Sentry (....), Retaliatory Strike, but only on the Greylord Escort (assuming only he is changed to Sacred Ward) Silence of Death Hand of Fate (already available in a much better version in Vlad1’s Signs & Portents) Shatter Storm Quicken Last Stand Ghost Walk Banishing Ward (......) Weald Secrets (.....) Out of those, you have the truly appealing ones, in roughly descending order of desirability: Battle Lust Fury Last Stand Silence of Death Iron Flesh Tactical Supremacy Ghost Walk ...everything else Out of those, other factions can already do that, and the combos are hardly tearing up the world... (Skorne has effectively Butcher1 in Xerxis1, and Kallus2 has Battle Lust for the Blighted Swordsmen, amongst other examples.) I agree, it wouldn't break the game or anything close, but I still doubt they'll do it, and to be honest I'm not super convinced sacred ward is what they'll settle on if they do. If they're open to having them be target-able by magic and dropping the fluff pretenses why not just drop a point and lose spell ward altogether? Wouldn't that make more sense from a balancing perspective? Instead of a straight buff it'd be a more lateral move.
|
|
|
Fall CID
Nov 13, 2018 19:51:58 GMT
via mobile
Post by The Snark Knight on Nov 13, 2018 19:51:58 GMT
They are as good as they are cheap. I'm guessing you don't mean they're not good and not cheap here?
|
|
Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
|
Post by Hashmal on Nov 13, 2018 20:00:08 GMT
I agree with michael. The basic output of switching Spell Ward to Sacred Ward would be: -Doom Reavers move faster (absolute via Quicken or indirectly via Ghost Walk/Tactical Supremacy) -Doom Reavers hit more accurately -Doom Reavers hit harder -Doom Reavers are more survivable
...and quite frankly, those are all changes they need even in addition to a points drop. Most 'casters can only put two of these four on the Doom Reavers at a time, and any power of upkeeps would be mitigated by the fact that these are still 6 man squads with very mediocre to poor defensive stats. And again, I argue that Vlad1 can already put two of these four on the Doom Reavers via Signs and Portends, and I've seen no scuttlebutt about how Vlad1 Doom Reaver spam should be a thing. Heck, Irusk2 can provide them no-knockdown Tough and blast immunity, which is pretty much what you'd be seeking from Iron Flesh, as well as Tactician, and *still* nobody's talking about that. They have a lot of room to improve.
As a Protectorate player, I have a good point of comparison. Knights Exemplar are quite analogous to Doom Reavers. They are 4 points cheaper for the base unit and in exchange have 2" less native threat, hit as accurately, have a lower volume of attacks (potentially), hit one POW lower until damage is suffered and then hit one POW higher, have slightly better defensive stats balanced by Doom Reaver Tough, have access to Pathfinder, and can be buffed. Add in the CA and the cost rises to the *same* as a squad of Doom Reavers and gives you access to Overtake and a minifeat which grants additional output, a hit buff, and a damage buff, and a CA that can stick a hit in melee. Even further, in theme we have access to Desperate Pace, giving the KE identical threat ranges to the Doom Reavers, whereas Doom Reavers are really hurting for army support in Wolves of Winter. The disparity between the two, to me, is ridiculous.
I just want to look across the table and fear Doom Reavers again. Every time I've faced them in Mk. III, it has been a painfully easy win.
And regarding Spell Ward, remove it from the Precursor Knights too. They are one of the worst units in the game. Frankly, it wouldn't kill me to see this rule entirely retired. Perhaps keep it on cagey solos who you don't want to worry about balancing against Warcaster/Warlock buffs. But it sucks out loud when a significant chunk of points in your list can't be buffed by your army and removes a core part of the game's play.
|
|
cuberic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
|
Post by cuberic on Nov 13, 2018 20:09:46 GMT
I think 10 points, and remove spellward from the Greylord Escort would be a good place to start testing. See how bad it gets, then dial it back.
|
|
|
Post by benjamini on Nov 13, 2018 20:15:52 GMT
OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMG I know this doesn't mean there will be Wolves of Winter tweaks... but I am tentatively excited! I actually think Wolves of Winter has probably some of the best Theme Benefits of any of our Theme forces, only thing that is holding it back is Unit choices Agreed, I was more referring to tweaks of either a. Actual Models IN Wolves of Winter or b. Things that can be taken in Wolves of Winter. Though oddly I often find myself feeling like the casters I actually want to use in Wolves of Winter have minimal Upkeeps I am actually able to/want to put on things in Wolves. The Apparition thing is AMAZING though.
|
|
Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
|
Post by Hashmal on Nov 13, 2018 20:19:46 GMT
I think 10 points, and remove spellward from the Greylord Escort would be a good place to start testing. See how bad it gets, then dial it back. I think that could be really interesting. A bit unintuitive initially (wait, I can't target these dudes but I can target that guy? Eh?) but probably a great way to balance them on the table and fluff-wise. And yes, 10 points or go home.
|
|
|
Post by auraco on Nov 13, 2018 22:39:26 GMT
I hope they also look at outriders, ternions, koldun lords and add Ruin to wolves of winter while they are at it. Wolves of winter should be about more than just spamming doom reavers.
|
|