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Post by Big Fat Troll on Nov 8, 2018 22:40:02 GMT
I really like this list, especially since it's based on units but still runs several jacks and I wish we could see that more often. Any thoughts?
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Nov 8, 2018 23:02:33 GMT
I have to say colossals + medium infantry catch my interest way more, but I doubt Sorscha3 really wants one. Afaik MoW Sorscha is all about jacks with 3 initials to get maximum milage out of flank, which is why Kodiaks are so good with her (that and native pathfinder), but Ragers and Berserkers have those too. Not sure how I feel about Marauders, though.
I guess it comes down to preference, but I am unsure which merc solo is the way to go in AC: Sylys, Saxon or Ragman. All are great and all of them seem to be needed, which makes deciding difficult.
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Post by hocestbellum on Nov 8, 2018 23:30:50 GMT
The list, for those on mobile: conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0Tk_kRkRkTkT9vl5l4l4l3l38686l2l7l17QgdKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Armored Corps [Sorscha 3] Kommandant Sorscha Kratikoff [+28] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, the Seeker [4] Man-O-War Kovnik [4] Man-O-War Strike Tanker [5] Man-O-War Strike Tanker [5] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard [7] Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14] - Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich [0(6)] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4] Seems pretty standard, tbh. There's only so much you can do jack-wise whilst still retaining the 60 points of MoWs; 43 points means it's impossible to get 4 jacks without using the Berzerker chassis. I've seen triple Kodiak floating around, too; I think that was what Skathrex used? I always feel these lists are extremely support-heavy, though. Everyone seems to default to 4 Tankers and Atanas, and when they're topped off with double mechanics that's a third of your army straight away. I don't play often any more, so I don't really have enough game experience to gainsay it, but it just feels a bit off. In particular I've not played S3 full stop, so I can't really comment
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Post by auraco on Nov 9, 2018 3:54:46 GMT
The list, for those on mobile: conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0Tk_kRkRkTkT9vl5l4l4l3l38686l2l7l17QgdKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Armored Corps [Sorscha 3] Kommandant Sorscha Kratikoff [+28] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, the Seeker [4] Man-O-War Kovnik [4] Man-O-War Strike Tanker [5] Man-O-War Strike Tanker [5] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard [7] Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14] - Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich [0(6)] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4] Seems pretty standard, tbh. There's only so much you can do jack-wise whilst still retaining the 60 points of MoWs; 43 points means it's impossible to get 4 jacks without using the Berzerker chassis. I've seen triple Kodiak floating around, too; I think that was what Skathrex used? I always feel these lists are extremely support-heavy, though. Everyone seems to default to 4 Tankers and Atanas, and when they're topped off with double mechanics that's a third of your army straight away. I don't play often any more, so I don't really have enough game experience to gainsay it, but it just feels a bit off. In particular I've not played S3 full stop, so I can't really comment The tankers are not support models, they do a lot of work, they are pretty much the models that unlocked armored corps. As for the list, I prefer to have some kodiaks because otherwise it really lacks pathfinder which can be back breaking if not playing on a map like that with a big open field in the middle and some not very relevant forests. Skrathrex did use a 3 kodiak version, I like two kodiaks and a maraudeur.
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Post by maxtermynd on Nov 9, 2018 4:04:36 GMT
The list, for those on mobile: conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0Tk_kRkRkTkT9vl5l4l4l3l38686l2l7l17QgdKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Armored Corps [Sorscha 3] Kommandant Sorscha Kratikoff [+28] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, the Seeker [4] Man-O-War Kovnik [4] Man-O-War Strike Tanker [5] Man-O-War Strike Tanker [5] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard [7] Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14] - Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich [0(6)] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4] Seems pretty standard, tbh. There's only so much you can do jack-wise whilst still retaining the 60 points of MoWs; 43 points means it's impossible to get 4 jacks without using the Berzerker chassis. I've seen triple Kodiak floating around, too; I think that was what Skathrex used? I always feel these lists are extremely support-heavy, though. Everyone seems to default to 4 Tankers and Atanas, and when they're topped off with double mechanics that's a third of your army straight away. I don't play often any more, so I don't really have enough game experience to gainsay it, but it just feels a bit off. In particular I've not played S3 full stop, so I can't really comment Triple Kodiak is what Skathrex used yes, but switching around the jack load out can be huge for S3. With this build she actually has throw away heavies to take something out while triple Kodiak gives you a lot of much needed Pathfinder. It's not going to dramatically change the list, but the jack choice can really add some secret sauce. That being said, the rest is indeed pretty "standard", at least as much as can be said for S3.
I don't think Tankers are support- they are models that do a lot of work while offering some utility if needed in that particular matchup. For S3 they also provide a durable source of Flank that she can use that can be separated from the main body of her force. And Atanas, like the Kovnik, generally gets work done late game after providing a lot of utility early on, so in general I see him as really worth it. Plus he can make S3 almost immune to melee assassination which can be clutch in certain matchups.
As far as the actual support (mechaniks + Sylys), I think you can get away with dropping them out of the list. I see why they're there, though- S3 really likes having 8" Stoke the Fires and 10" frost nukes plus a free upkeep, but I think with practice you can get away with not having him. The mechs are providing two more advance moves, so you can AM your Tankers and the Shocktroopers which is pretty cool, but probably not necessary. I could certainly see swapping them out for a Forge Seer and upgrading a Marauder to a Kodiak, for instance.
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Post by hocestbellum on Nov 9, 2018 10:59:22 GMT
Having watched the battle now, I was very impressed with the work that Sorscha herself managed to put in. Rather than just being supportive of the army she was really getting stuck in.
Also, this does a good job of highlighting just how excellent Flank is. Every time a jack got to grips with something, it died, even with the most pillow-fisted jacks in our arsenal. (Mad Dog is a paperweight, not a jack)
But it also shows why I really, really prefer three units (two Shocktroopers, one Demo); that entire flank just folded like a cheap suit. Yes, a lot of that is down to Siege's feat with FFE Ground Pounder (disgusting, I must say), but Demo Corps are so crumbly that I never feel like you can use them as an actual unit. The issue with three full MoW units then becomes points; what do you drop to fit them in?
That, more than anything else, is why I'm not keen on quad Tanker.
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Post by borderprince on Nov 9, 2018 11:41:58 GMT
The issue with three full MoW units then becomes points; what do you drop to fit them in? That, more than anything else, is why I'm not keen on quad Tanker. Perhaps something like this?
Sorscha3
-Kodiak
-Kodiak
-Marauder
Max MoW STs + UA
Max MoW STs + UA
Max Demo Corps + Dragos (free)
Atanas
MoW Kovnik
Suppression Tanker (free)
Suppression Tanker (free)
No mechaniks or Sylys, and only 3 jacks, but 3 jacks is still solid given the amount of ARM in the rest of the list (and the Marauder is much tougher than a Berserker). You could have a BG of 2x Marauder and 2 x Berserker if you prefer. It still fits as there is 1 point spare. I'd prefer the Kodiaks due to the shortage of pathfinder in the list.
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Post by hocestbellum on Nov 9, 2018 11:57:01 GMT
Something like that, yeah. Maybe more along the lines of conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0Tk_7skTkT9vl5l4l486l2l77Qgd7QgdKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Armored Corps [Sorscha 3] Kommandant Sorscha Kratikoff [+28] - Kodiak [13] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, the Seeker [4] Man-O-War Kovnik [0(4)] Man-O-War Strike Tanker [0(5)] Man-O-War Strike Tanker [0(5)] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard [7] Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4] Because I don't rate Dragos and prefer the Strikes. But even that doesn't feel great... Mostly I think I just don't like the Atanas tax in AC.
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Post by borderprince on Nov 9, 2018 14:10:55 GMT
Because I don't rate Dragos and prefer the Strikes. But even that doesn't feel great... Mostly I think I just don't like the Atanas tax in AC. Dragos + Sorscha3 can be pretty good as Dragos + Iron Flesh can make Demo Corps considerably more resilient to small arms. Generally though, I agree and go with min Demo Corps instead.
As for Atanas, I don't think he always has to be included. But Retaliatory Strike on Sorscha3 is so good in letting you play her a bit more aggressively (or compensating for my inevitable positioning mistakes). Not worth 7 points, but definitely a significant part of his value with her.
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Post by hocestbellum on Nov 9, 2018 14:22:53 GMT
Because I don't rate Dragos and prefer the Strikes. But even that doesn't feel great... Mostly I think I just don't like the Atanas tax in AC. Dragos + Sorscha3 can be pretty good as Dragos + Iron Flesh can make Demo Corps considerably more resilient to small arms. Generally though, I agree and go with min Demo Corps instead.
As for Atanas, I don't think he always has to be included. But Retaliatory Strike on Sorscha3 is so good in letting you play her a bit more aggressively (or compensating for my inevitable positioning mistakes). Not worth 7 points, but definitely a significant part of his value with her.
I always forget S3 is a MoW! But my point was more general; basically every AC list will always include Atanas (unless, like me, you run I2), and I dislike that when points are already so tight.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Nov 9, 2018 14:55:27 GMT
Having watched the battle now, I was very impressed with the work that Sorscha herself managed to put in. Rather than just being supportive of the army she was really getting stuck in. Also, this does a good job of highlighting just how excellent Flank is. Every time a jack got to grips with something, it died, even with the most pillow-fisted jacks in our arsenal. (Mad Dog is a paperweight, not a jack) But it also shows why I really, really prefer three units (two Shocktroopers, one Demo); that entire flank just folded like a cheap suit. Yes, a lot of that is down to Siege's feat with FFE Ground Pounder (disgusting, I must say), but Demo Corps are so crumbly that I never feel like you can use them as an actual unit. The issue with three full MoW units then becomes points; what do you drop to fit them in? That, more than anything else, is why I'm not keen on quad Tanker. Another issue is that Sorscha is kinda the only caster who really appreciates the presence of drakuhns and they cost even more points to squeeze in.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Nov 9, 2018 18:05:03 GMT
3x Kodiak huh? How's this for that? conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0Tk_7s7s7sl5l3l34il7l17Qgd7QgdKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Armored Corps [Sorscha 3] Kommandant Sorscha Kratikoff [+28] - Kodiak [13] - Kodiak [13] - Kodiak [13] Man-O-War Kovnik [0(4)] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Saxon Orrik [4] Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14] - Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich [6] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4]
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Post by auraco on Nov 9, 2018 18:21:04 GMT
I want to point out that Sorscha3 is a man o war, she is affected by Atanas' tactician bubble, this is something people don't seem to take in consideration here. Tactician is good, tactician affecting your caster is even better. You can have Sorscha start in the backline, charge something to get a stationnary without having to cast winter's wrath and then have her army of man o war move in front of her to protect her, I don't see myself playing Sorscha3 without Atanas. The guy is also still a mat 8 pow 15 dude, it's also a cheap unit to score zone and give advance move without being squish like the mechaniks. I can understand not wanting support, but cutting Atanas feels like a mistake to me, I've played a lot of Sorscha3 and he's a key model in making her work in my opinion.
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Post by anderfreak on Nov 9, 2018 19:24:51 GMT
I have to say colossals + medium infantry catch my interest way more, but I doubt Sorscha3 really wants one. Afaik MoW Sorscha is all about jacks with 3 initials to get maximum milage out of flank, which is why Kodiaks are so good with her (that and native pathfinder), but Ragers and Berserkers have those too. Not sure how I feel about Marauders, though. I guess it comes down to preference, but I am unsure which merc solo is the way to go in AC: Sylys, Saxon or Ragman. All are great and all of them seem to be needed, which makes deciding difficult. I think marauders are always worth considering if you need to save points or are expecting to play into a lot of huge bases. Their output is similar enough to the juggernauts with flank calculated in, except against huge bases where the marauder just outclasses the juggs. The juggernaut does more damage to heavies, but flank is still usually enough for P+S 16 to do the job especially if the flanking model has already chipped away at it. I think it was 32.5 damage against ARM 20 for the marauder and the juggs at 43 damage against ARM 20, against ARM 20 huge bases the marauder is 50 damage and the juggernaut is still 43. The juggs gives you a good margin of error against heavies, but downgrading still gives you a very competent beatstick and some wiggle room on points.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Nov 9, 2018 21:08:38 GMT
I have to say colossals + medium infantry catch my interest way more, but I doubt Sorscha3 really wants one. Afaik MoW Sorscha is all about jacks with 3 initials to get maximum milage out of flank, which is why Kodiaks are so good with her (that and native pathfinder), but Ragers and Berserkers have those too. Not sure how I feel about Marauders, though. I guess it comes down to preference, but I am unsure which merc solo is the way to go in AC: Sylys, Saxon or Ragman. All are great and all of them seem to be needed, which makes deciding difficult. I think marauders are always worth considering if you need to save points or are expecting to play into a lot of huge bases. Their output is similar enough to the juggernauts with flank calculated in, except against huge bases where the marauder just outclasses the juggs. The juggernaut does more damage to heavies, but flank is still usually enough for P+S 16 to do the job especially if the flanking model has already chipped away at it. I think it was 32.5 damage against ARM 20 for the marauder and the juggs at 43 damage against ARM 20, against ARM 20 huge bases the marauder is 50 damage and the juggernaut is still 43. The juggs gives you a good margin of error against heavies, but downgrading still gives you a very competent beatstick and some wiggle room on points. Makes sense, but I think it makes more sense to compare the output of the Marauder to Sorschas favourite jacks, which incidentally are not the Juggs but Kodiaks and Ragers, because they all get more milage out of Flank to to their number of initials.
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