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Post by hocestbellum on Nov 7, 2018 17:34:32 GMT
Yesterday I posted that Irusk2 can viably run all 5 theme forces, as he loves all infantry forces and can also run a Kayazy-based Jaws list pretty damn spectacularly. This got me thinking about which other casters can be run well in all the theme forces?
I don't mean, if you were picking theme forces, that these would be the best choices for those theme forces. I mean that if you wanted to play, say, Strakhov1, you could make a decent list from any theme. As opposed to Sorscha3, for example, where you are quite heavily locked into AC
I reckon we've got quite a stable:
Irusk1 and Irusk2 can both run any infantry well, and can also run the Kayazy Jaws lists. Even Wolves, arguably their worst theme, loves no-KD tough, pathfinder, and effects that slow down the opposition (Inhospitable Ground, feat, etc.)
Zerkova1 and OW2 can run anything, because neither of them directly support their armies. They focus instead on messing up your opponents' days, which any list can benefit from
Vlad1 flat out indiscriminately supports everything.
B3 doesn't care what army he has behind him, relying mainly on personal threat. I'm not 100% sure he'd run well in Wolves, but maybe.
Strakhov1 loves all melee infantry, and also runs jack well in Jaws or Kommand. I find Kozlov to be the same.
I feel like Vlad2 should be here, but I've never felt he has a particularly good game when going jack-heavy because of the nature of his feat.
So arguably that's 7-9 casters who could put in a good shift in any theme. That seems pretty damn impressive to me.
Any I've missed? Any you disagree with?
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Post by benjamini on Nov 7, 2018 18:22:36 GMT
I've never had a particularly compelling reason to take Vlad 2 in either WGK or Jaws... I'm sure it COULD be done, and there are some neat tricks they can pull over... but not on the level of some of the other casters those themes can use.
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Post by P'tit Nico on Nov 7, 2018 18:35:43 GMT
Butcher1 can also run any theme.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Nov 7, 2018 19:31:09 GMT
Vlad_1, both Irusk, Old Witch_2, Butcher_3, Zerkova_1 are all examples of casters I can comfortably build any Themes list around.
They can all do their main trick and have the Themed units can benefit from it, which is what you are pretty much looking for.
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Post by hocestbellum on Nov 7, 2018 19:43:14 GMT
Butcher1 can also run any theme. Ah yes, good shout! Who doesn't like insane damage buffs?
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Post by borderprince on Nov 7, 2018 21:00:21 GMT
Butcher1 can also run any theme. Ah yes, good shout! Who doesn't like insane damage buffs? The enemy? Kozlov I don't like so much in WGK - he just doesn't benefit the WG models enough, especially as repo 3 (probably his best spell for them) is already available to the WGI via the UA. Might work as combined arms, but I'd say several others do that better in that theme.
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Post by hocestbellum on Nov 7, 2018 21:35:27 GMT
Ah yes, good shout! Who doesn't like insane damage buffs? The enemy? Kozlov I don't like so much in WGK - he just doesn't benefit the WG models enough, especially as repo 3 (probably his best spell for them) is already available to the WGI via the UA. Might work as combined arms, but I'd say several others do that better in that theme. Last time I did it, it was more of a combined arms. Malakov is in theme, and his jack fully benefits from the feat. A SPD8 P21 ARM22 free-charge Juggernaut with full focus at no cost to my caster seemed too good to pass up. Kozlov got to play more forwards, which helps a lot with his smaller control area. Having a unit of Rifles with Repo is delightful, as is having almost any jack with it. And one time I got to use Fury and Bear's Strength on some engaged Rifles. They hit harder than the Griffon engaging them! I feel like I had 5 jacks and 40 points of WG. I'll try to dig out the list
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Post by cplmustard on Nov 7, 2018 22:01:03 GMT
Kinda surprised nobody's mentioned sorscha1, considering her whole shtick is freezing things (not to mention the shatter synergy with AK) and being a pretty decent assassin, she can run any theme pretty well I feel. Even LoS, which I feel is probably her weakest theme, appreciates fog of war and knockdown/freeze + precision strike.
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Post by hocestbellum on Nov 7, 2018 23:31:29 GMT
Kinda surprised nobody's mentioned sorscha1, considering her whole shtick is freezing things (not to mention the shatter synergy with AK) and being a pretty decent assassin, she can run any theme pretty well I feel. Even LoS, which I feel is probably her weakest theme, appreciates fog of war and knockdown/freeze + precision strike. I feel that Legion of Steel is one of her stronger ones, personally; it's my Cryx drop! But you make a good point. +2 DEF and autohitting go well with anything
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Nov 8, 2018 0:29:15 GMT
I've never had a particularly compelling reason to take Vlad 2 in either WGK or Jaws... I'm sure it COULD be done, and there are some neat tricks they can pull over... but not on the level of some of the other casters those themes can use. Maybe I am just crazy, but as I build into Jaws, Vlad2 was one of my main picks to run it. He has some pretty great feat targets with 2 units of Eliminators, 2 Manhunters, the 2 Forge Seers you are likely to take... Plus the Kayazy themselves if a few of your solos have bit the dust. Once Sorscha0 drops, the Eliminators are going to be charging insane distances with Acrobatics: SPD 7 +3 (feat) +2 (Boundless Charge) +3 (charging) +.5 (melee range) = 15.5" melee threat The Manhunters are threating out 14.5"... That seems pretty respectable to me when they can use Vlad2's Focus to boost. Throw Hand of Fate on either the Eliminators that are tearing across 15" of the board to make their assassination go smoother, or throw is on the Assassins to give them a slight boost with hitting and damage rolls.
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Post by borderprince on Nov 8, 2018 7:11:07 GMT
... Kozlov I don't like so much in WGK - he just doesn't benefit the WG models enough, especially as repo 3 (probably his best spell for them) is already available to the WGI via the UA. Might work as combined arms, but I'd say several others do that better in that theme. Last time I did it, it was more of a combined arms. Malakov is in theme, and his jack fully benefits from the feat. A SPD8 P21 ARM22 free-charge Juggernaut with full focus at no cost to my caster seemed too good to pass up. Kozlov got to play more forwards, which helps a lot with his smaller control area. Having a unit of Rifles with Repo is delightful, as is having almost any jack with it. And one time I got to use Fury and Bear's Strength on some engaged Rifles. They hit harder than the Griffon engaging them! I feel like I had 5 jacks and 40 points of WG. I'll try to dig out the list Please do!
I wonder whether he might not have something similar in Jaws (Widowmakers with Repo + the Marksman's Swift Hunter are always fun). For the Fury + Bear's Strength combo, the problem I've always had is that MAT5 - Kayazy + Fury at least help address that. Is the clincher perhaps how important Sac Pawn is in a particular match up?
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Post by hocestbellum on Nov 8, 2018 7:38:28 GMT
Back then Malakov wasn't available in Jaws, but I'm sure it's worth a shot! Thinking about it, it may have also been when Juggers cost 12, so perhaps I need to shave some points now.
The clincher was the shooting, actually. I figured that the jacks can deal with any ARM trivially between Fury and Redline, so I'd need a way to get them to their targets. WG seemed much better at clearing charge lines and jamming units. The Fury-Bear thing was never plan A, it was just an amusing opportunity that cropped up.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Nov 8, 2018 17:55:33 GMT
Kinda surprised nobody's mentioned sorscha1, considering her whole shtick is freezing things (not to mention the shatter synergy with AK) and being a pretty decent assassin, she can run any theme pretty well I feel. Even LoS, which I feel is probably her weakest theme, appreciates fog of war and knockdown/freeze + precision strike. I didn't mention her because WGK severely reduces her Merc choices, and I feel that Sylys is pretty much required for her in order to land Freezing Grip.
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Post by benjamini on Nov 8, 2018 19:07:39 GMT
I didn't mention her because WGK severely reduces her Merc choices, and I feel that Sylys is pretty much required for her in order to land Freezing Grip. I thought of Sorscha 1, and it's true that she runs most themes pretty okay... but ever since SotN came out I've felt pretty bad about playing her PERIOD. ...mind you there are a bunch of Trolls around here, mileage may vary.
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Post by hocestbellum on Nov 8, 2018 19:41:29 GMT
Last time I did it, it was more of a combined arms. Malakov is in theme, and his jack fully benefits from the feat. A SPD8 P21 ARM22 free-charge Juggernaut with full focus at no cost to my caster seemed too good to pass up. Kozlov got to play more forwards, which helps a lot with his smaller control area. Having a unit of Rifles with Repo is delightful, as is having almost any jack with it. And one time I got to use Fury and Bear's Strength on some engaged Rifles. They hit harder than the Griffon engaging them! I feel like I had 5 jacks and 40 points of WG. I'll try to dig out the list Please do!
I wonder whether he might not have something similar in Jaws (Widowmakers with Repo + the Marksman's Swift Hunter are always fun). For the Fury + Bear's Strength combo, the problem I've always had is that MAT5 - Kayazy + Fury at least help address that. Is the clincher perhaps how important Sac Pawn is in a particular match up?
Yeah, it was pre-points change. The jacks used to be 2x Jugger, 2x Marauder, 1x Destroyer/Devastator, and had an extra rocketeer in there which made the second mortar free instead of the WGI officer. Here is an updated version, although admittedly unplayed. Khador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Winter Guard Kommand [Kozlov 1] Lord Kozlov, Viscount of Scarsgrad [+28] - Juggernaut [13] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] Kovnik Andrei Malakov [4] - Juggernaut [13] Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich [4] Winter Guard Infantry (max) [10] - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [0(4)] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (2) [4] Winter Guard Mortar Crew [0(5)] Winter Guard Mortar Crew [5] Winter Guard Rifle Corps (max) [13] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (2) [4]
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