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Post by benjamini on Nov 6, 2018 14:03:35 GMT
Hey Guys,
So I've got a bit of a Champions problem these days, mostly that I'm not big on most of the available ADR Casters in Jaws. It was an issue in the last cycle, when Jaws and WGK were our most competitive themes (as AC had not yet dropped), but the requirement of taking either a single AC list, or bringing a Jaws list along for the ride seems... unsatisfactory... to me with the casters we have available. This will probably change when Sorscha 0 arrives, and we have more ways of giving Pathfinder to the likes of Butcher 1, but for now I've been experimenting...
Enter Nyss Hunters. I've been trying to make them work in Jaws of the Wolf on occasion since last year at SOO when I took them in an ill-advised Kozlov list in the Champions event. Lately I've been giving them a shot with Butcher 1 however, as I think he is a stronger caster than Kozlov. In either iteration, I have found them to be a bit of a mixed bag. They have a lot of rules that help on paper: Pathfinder, range 12 shooting, weapon masters (albeit low pow, but Fury is a handy buff)... but they are expensive as heck and it can be a hard sell to spend the 23 pts necessary to bring Valachev along. In my games with them they're in a bit of a weird place, where I can't point my finger at an particular area where they haven't done what I've asked them to in the end, but it's clear that they aren't really pulling their weight overall.
Has anyone else used them successfully lately? Any alternatives in the theme? Am I bonkers for even considering it?
For reference, here's what I've been doing:
Khador Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Jaws of the Wolf
[Butcher 1] Orsus Zoktavir, The Butcher of Khardov [+28]
- Devastator [14]
- Devastator [14]
- Kodiak [13]
- Kodiak [13]
- Ruin [17]
Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)]
Greylord Forge Seer [4]
Yuri the Axe [0(6)]
Cylena Raefyll & Nyss Hunters (max) [19]
- Koldun Kapitan Valachev [4]
Kayazy Eliminators [5]
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Post by Soul Samurai on Nov 6, 2018 15:52:36 GMT
I play them out of theme. I feel they are decent generalists who are a bit overpriced.
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224 
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Post by Zaku on Nov 6, 2018 17:06:43 GMT
Yikes. 23 points for the Nyss and Valachev is a hard pill to swallow.
edit. I am kind of feeling that instead of the Nyss, would it not be more efficient to just take Yuri as a free solo, and either a max or two min units of Kossites? That also leaves you with enough points to potentially take a Manhunter or two.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Nov 6, 2018 17:32:21 GMT
Here you go. :P conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0x797w7skZ9vhF7phF7p86758IKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf [Irusk 2] Supreme Kommandant Irusk [+27] - Behemoth [25] - Kodiak [13] - Rager [10] - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, the Seeker [4] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] - Destroyer [14] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] - Destroyer [14] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Cylena Raefyll & Nyss Hunters (max) [19] - Koldun Kapitan Valachev [0(4)] Though maybe swap out the Rager and Mechaniks for a second Kodiak. With two clouds he might not need a shield guard. |
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Post by benjamini on Nov 6, 2018 17:34:25 GMT
Yikes. 23 points for the Nyss and Valachev is a hard pill to swallow. edit. I am kind of feeling that instead of the Nyss, would it not be more efficient to just take Yuri as a free solo, and either a max or two min units of Kossites? That also leaves you with enough points to potentially take a Manhunter or two. Maybe, Nyss get a heck of a lot more work done than Kossites though... but kossites and two manhunters, who knows! |
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Post by auraco on Nov 6, 2018 17:55:01 GMT
I've kind of given up on our second champion list with the current line up of caster.
The nyss always feel overpriced every time I put them on the table. 19 points is expansive before even considering the points for Valachev.
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Post by benjamini on Nov 6, 2018 18:59:01 GMT
I've kind of given up on our second champion list with the current line up of caster. The nyss always feel overpriced every time I put them on the table. 19 points is expansive before even considering the points for Valachev. Surely it's better to have something than not have something? I don't know, I feel like I could make a few solid Jaws lists with the ADR Casters IF I had Sorscha0 at my disposal (and she keeps boundless charge)... but alas, PP appears to be taking their sweet time with her... |
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Post by kovnikninehouse on Nov 6, 2018 19:30:44 GMT
Regarding Sorcha0 maybe they are saving the best for last???
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Post by auraco on Nov 6, 2018 20:03:27 GMT
Looks like they are saving Sorscha0 for last, and the caster line up for champion will probably change before we can get her. If she stays as was in CID (considering she didn't change for the entire CID I don't see why she would change now) she will be a key piece in making Jaws list work. Because at the moment Jaws is very underwhelming and the caster line up for Champion is criminally bad for Jaws at the moment.
Regarding the nyss hunters in the jaws list, I think I'd rather have two units of eliminators and a unit of widowmaker instead of the nyss, seems like more value for less points at this point.
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Post by benjamini on Nov 6, 2018 20:10:31 GMT
Looks like they are saving Sorscha0 for last, and the caster line up for champion will probably change before we can get her. If she stays as was in CID (considering she didn't change for the entire CID I don't see why she would change now) she will be a key piece in making Jaws list work. Because at the moment Jaws is very underwhelming and the caster line up for Champion is criminally bad for Jaws at the moment. Regarding the nyss hunters in the jaws list, I think I'd rather have two units of eliminators and a unit of widowmaker instead of the nyss, seems like more value for less points at this point. Which is weird, because it almost feels like this particular group of casters was selected under the assumption that we'd have access to her. I'm just worried now that for the next ADR Roster they'll be like... Lol Wolves of Winter and Legion of Steel, have fun! |
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Nov 6, 2018 20:33:30 GMT
Looks like they are saving Sorscha0 for last, and the caster line up for champion will probably change before we can get her. If she stays as was in CID (considering she didn't change for the entire CID I don't see why she would change now) she will be a key piece in making Jaws list work. Because at the moment Jaws is very underwhelming and the caster line up for Champion is criminally bad for Jaws at the moment. Regarding the nyss hunters in the jaws list, I think I'd rather have two units of eliminators and a unit of widowmaker instead of the nyss, seems like more value for less points at this point. Which is weird, because it almost feels like this particular group of casters was selected under the assumption that we'd have access to her. I'm just worried now that for the next ADR Roster they'll be like... Lol Wolves of Winter and Legion of Steel, have fun! The troll factor if that happens would be amazing. |
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Post by auraco on Nov 6, 2018 21:56:08 GMT
I have a hard time taking the champion format seriously when we get that and they let circle get Kruger2 Bones.
But enough of me complaining. I think until merc get a CID to reduce the point cost on the nyss they will stay too expansive for serious use. As I said, I think eliminators and widowmaker would be a better point investment.
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Post by michael on Nov 6, 2018 22:09:03 GMT
Did anyone ever use Nyss Hunters?
I never used Nyss Hunters.
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Nov 7, 2018 2:41:28 GMT
Did anyone ever use Nyss Hunters? I never used Nyss Hunters. I hadn't touched the Nyss since Mk.II ended, and even then they were seldomly used. |
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Post by Netherby on Nov 7, 2018 8:35:19 GMT
Honestly in Mk3 the Nyss are just a pretty bad choice.
First look at how they were used in Mk2: They were taken to put Iron Flesh on to make them DEF stupid (18). Then Valuechev allowed them to either Aim while still getting an advance, extend their ranged threat or unjam them from melee jammers. This all made them a difficult unit to remove or jam while they had plenty of targets thanks to CRA + Hunter + Weapon Master. (Recall in Mk2 Hunter allowed you to ignore forests for LOS, which is no longer the case)
So the role they had in Mk2 is completely gone. We cannot use them in that role any more because Iron Flesh doesn't give DEF. What else changed? Well, they lost a point of DEF and Hunter got nerfed, meanwhile they only went down 1/2 a point.
Mk3 also devalued DEF (by lowering it in a lot of places while also upping MAT/RAT) while also adding to the list of things that either auto hit or have really high blast damage (high explosive, etc). This strongly pushes out models with low ARM. So the Nyss are pushed out because they have low ARM while also having their prey pushed out since lower ARM is what they kill. You are left with a unit that is crazy expensive, dies really easily and has a lack of targets to boot.
In summery the unit is:
-Way over costed
-Pushed out of Mk3 meta: Easily killed
-Pushed out of Mk3 meta: Few good targets
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