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Post by mydnight on Nov 27, 2018 23:04:29 GMT
Why is Corbeau still so important in the current meta, when weapon master spam has considerably diminished?
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Post by paradox on Nov 28, 2018 1:09:47 GMT
That looks fun, though now the Initiates are 8 points again. Yeah, that was before the update hit. I had a moment of angst, thought about making judi into 2 reckoners and hating life. Then I dropped a champ for two monks. It worked out pretty well. I actually felt like a 2nd champ or a 2nd unit of initiates was a real tough decision, which is good. Theyre compelling because Rez loves shield guards. Getting 6 fir 16pts makes magic gun matches alot less painful. I ended up into Ret with Thyron. Among other stuff, he had 2 daemons. The daemons are better into initiates than champs because 3x POW12s vs 1 on a champ. BUT, the champ is a liability to troops around it because of a bigger base, and initiates could SG a shot away from, say, idrians. Maybe theres a case for 7pts, but 8pts is still plenty fair. Worth more testing, but Im happy either way. BTW, I REALLY enjoyed using your Rez2 styles. I had fun with him for the first time in I dont know how long. I learned alot I could have done better in the last turn, rather than faildicing Imperatus and losing with Rez. Cheers for that.
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Post by paradox on Nov 28, 2018 1:13:01 GMT
Why is Corbeau still so important in the current meta, when weapon master spam has considerably diminished? Caster vs caster, for one. Plus, it has not, really. I still see Madrak1 BoH alot here. I play lots of EI. Dark Host is still in evidence. Primal Terrors gets play round here, so does Slaughterfleet. So, uh, yeah.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Nov 28, 2018 2:27:49 GMT
I really appreciate the feedback, dox. Made my night! And I agree with your swap. Reckoners are very sad right now. Judy is not, and he does so much for her. And 16 points for 6 Shield Guards for Reznik2 is sooooo good. Really lets him bully and, importantly, opens up Faithful Masses for him.
RE Madelyn in the current meta, I firmly believe her to be more important with him than ever.
-Cygnar is still playing Gravediggers and occasionally you see Storm Lance-driven Storm Division. Reznik2 and Madelyn are excellent for both.
-Khador is rocking Armored Corps, Winterguard Kommand, and will soon be shoving Doom Reaver spam down your throat. Again, these are great drops for the big lug.
-Prot runs EI and FM frequently, and often not with 3+ heavies either. Good game here.
-Cryx runs Dark Host, SFR, and Scourge. And I'm seeing whispers of the Ghost Fleet rising again. These are great for Reznik2 and Madelyn.
-For Mercs, the Reznik2/Madelyn combo just guarantees you will see Ossrum.
-For CoC, the new solo breathes life into their infantry theme. Again, Reznik2 and Madelyn guarantee you will see Destruction Initiative.
-Trolls run pretty much nothing but infantry. Reznik2 and Madelyn really break their balls.
-Skorne is about to run Immortal Host, big time. Again...
-And lest we forget that Devourer's Host is huge in Circle? Again!
-Primal Terrors is still Legion's best theme and Reznik2 loves seeing it with Madelyn.
-And do not forget Maelok Gator Spam, a list you still see in Minions.
I challenge another Prot caster to have such a wide range of even to favorable matchups, and to do so consistently into what are considered top tier armies. And Madelyn makes that happen for him. I think the future looks bright for Sul's newest hot couple.
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Post by greytemplar on Nov 28, 2018 3:20:56 GMT
Why is Corbeau still so important in the current meta, when weapon master spam has considerably diminished? As already mentioned, its not just weapon masters. She protects from warcasters/warlocks too, which is probably the more important thing.
Butcher? Madrak? Nope! She is a big middle finger to any assassination attempts that don't use a Jack or Beast to finish it.
It really cuts down the options your opponent has for killing him, and it gets more powerful as the game drags on and you kill the stuff that can ignore Parlay. If you focus on killing the beasts/jacks while maintaining scenario pressure you can start to use Reznik himself very aggressively. If you manage to kill all of the jacks/beasts you can literally become invincible. And with his considerable personal threat range and damage output Reznik is strong enough to bully the field late game.
If you think about it. Reznik2 can, with minimal investment, be immune to all warrior model's melee attacks(and ranged that originates from <7"), immune to spells(Devout), and have a shield guard(devout) to protect himself/corbeau from any ranged attacks that originate from outside the bubble of protection, in addition to ranged attacks targeting him automatically missing. That is perhaps the greatest protection any caster in the game has.
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Post by mydnight on Nov 28, 2018 6:14:31 GMT
Thanks all, very useful.
I'm curious though, with CiDs, warriors models are coming back into prominence: Wouldn't the same argument for Corbeau extend to our other casters as well? I understand that Rez2 has a huge a** and needs more protection, but Corbeau (whether combined with a Warder or otherwise) would allow some of our beefier casters to play upfield. E.g. Durst, Rez1, Feora3, Kreoss3. I haven't played Rez2 since the beginning of MKIII hence am genuinely curious. Is it because giving up the hierophant is just too much for them?
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jarrow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 274
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Post by jarrow on Nov 28, 2018 7:07:28 GMT
Durst can really use Madelyn and I think he is on same boat as Reznik2 Rezni1 is not front line caster and relies too much to cost4 spell on focus6. He will also be killed by ranged if he walk too close. Feora3 need hierophant too much and also she is too mobile to protect Madelyn Kreoss3 is also spell-slinger that really like hierophant. Also madelyn means he have more reasons take take arcnode that do not fit his list well.
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Post by paradox on Nov 28, 2018 15:34:03 GMT
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Nov 28, 2018 18:47:36 GMT
Thanks all, very useful. I'm curious though, with CiDs, warriors models are coming back into prominence: Wouldn't the same argument for Corbeau extend to our other casters as well? I understand that Rez2 has a huge a** and needs more protection, but Corbeau (whether combined with a Warder or otherwise) would allow some of our beefier casters to play upfield. E.g. Durst, Rez1, Feora3, Kreoss3. I haven't played Rez2 since the beginning of MKIII hence am genuinely curious. Is it because giving up the hierophant is just too much for them? It's a combination of a few things. For one, Reznik2 has a good answer to many guns natively, whereas other 'casters do not. Second, Madelyn enables a bunch of game plays for Reznik2 that the Hierophant does not. Reznik2's Feat, Curse, Lamentation, and The Flesh Is Weak all benefit from being midfield more than backfield. Mainly, though, Reznik2 helps get around the traditional way of dealing with Ms. Corbeau: flooding her with shots until Sucker! goes down or getting a cagey spell on her and nuking her. His huge base is a major factor in keeping her alive because of how many attacks you can prevent through effective LoS blocking. There is an argument for other 'casters getting busy, but for all of them I'd pretty much mandate a Warder, as it's harder to screen to her. Also, she needs to play further upfield given the lower board space taken up by smaller bases, putting her at more risk. A huge base is more than three times the size of a large base. It goes a long way to keeping this combo alive. For the others that you mention: -Reznik1 isn't really a front-line 'caster. He tends to spend his load dealing with something and has a very static, predictable threat range. He has no serious abilities that key off being closer to the front. -There's an okay argument for Durst, but again he tends to play more back-midline and blows everything to deal with something serious. And he really can use the focus support. -Feora3 could benefit from Madelyn, but her weakness is getting shot in the face after blowing her stack, or just shot in general if she moves up. I can see an argument in FM with the Initiates now, however. -Kreoss3 could benefit from Madelyn more than all the others and probably is second to Reznik2 in the faction for it. He has incredible personal threat and can usually camp decently after personally deleting a heavy. He also has an incentive to get close for game closing through Force Hammer, should you not take a node. Having Maddy could enable more aggressive plays with him against some lists. Just be careful not to dust Ms. Corbeau while charging in.
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 29, 2018 2:03:27 GMT
Its so depressing seeing how far the reckoner has fallen as the CiD creep has turned it into a mediocre jack.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Nov 29, 2018 2:37:01 GMT
CID creep had nothing to do with the Reckoner falling from grace. He wasn't great at the beginning of MK3 either.
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Post by mydnight on Nov 29, 2018 4:01:15 GMT
Its so depressing seeing how far the reckoner has fallen as the CiD creep has turned it into a mediocre jack. I shed even more tears for the Vanquisher.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Nov 29, 2018 4:33:26 GMT
I cry for the Vassal who enabled the Vanquisher. He'd probably be closer to his points with Ancillary Attack still. As is, the Vanquisher is pushing a hard 14, but costs 17.
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 29, 2018 13:25:26 GMT
I cry for the Vassal who enabled the Vanquisher. He'd probably be closer to his points with Ancillary Attack still. As is, the Vanquisher is pushing a hard 14, but costs 17. Cost 14 Vanquisher would be amazing.
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Post by paradox on Nov 29, 2018 15:08:11 GMT
I was thinking 15. But damn, 14 would be hot.
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