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Post by darkangeldentist on Nov 2, 2018 13:09:15 GMT
I'm not playing very much. I've been on sojourn with minions for about a year and my main game currently is probably Infinity but I still want to play warmachine and really fancy putting Cygnar back on the table. My last couple of games weren't that long ago and were rather fun against a newer player to the game who was fielding skorne, I did put Cygnar down against him and it was good fun getting the swans back on the table.
I am not going to be looking at seriously competitive lists because that's not going to help my local gaming scene at all. Newer players and similarly split system loyalty gamers like myself are the only people available to play so tournament orientated brutal lists are not desirable. My two recent games were a Jakes2 storm division list and a non-theme Nemo1 list. The former played into Xerxes1 where my opponent seriously underestimated the flexibility and hitting power of Jakes's battlegroup and storm knights. The Nemo1 game was going strongly in my opponent's favour but he over-exposed Naaresh to a Nemo1 Thorn assassination. (I was lucky.)
I really enjoy talking list ideas and also speculating if a list might turn out to be tournament viable due to dark horse capacity or dealing with certain meta dependent trends. The Nemo1 list wasn't any good but it was fun putting character jacks on a different caster. The Jakes2 list I rather liked and there might some scope there as fairly general purpose list into factions like Skorne and Khador, possibly some others but it's no good into cloud walls I know.
Since I also listen to podcasts a fair bit I've spent more than a bit of time thinking about judicators (even though there are no local protectorate players) because it's something to do and focuses ideas for list building. I think it may have been a tactical tips podcast that brought it up. Judicators seem quite horribly powerful now (especially for the cost) and most of the conversation in the podcast had been about how to survive it's shooting and kill it quickly. The nastiest thing about Judicator now is the ranged presence it brings so my mind in trying to tackle that issue came around to Kraye. He now has countermeasures, which is a fantastic spell for mitigating enemy shooting and his battlegroup definitely has the mobility to get something close enough to screw with the judicator's shooting for a turn. Even if it means I'm having to sacrifice a light jack for the sake of a single turn, that could be worth it just for taking the judicator away from the action to deal with it.
This is what I came up with. It's in heavy metal and I know it's lacking a bit in the damage department but hopefully there's enough there to make a game of things, in particular against the likes of high reclaimer.
Kraye Squire Centurion Hammersmith Hammersmith Cyclone Cyclone Minuteman Minuteman
Caine0 Ace Arlan Strangewayes
Min field mechanics Lynus & Edrea (Could also be trencher mechanics.)
The plan is that with Kraye cyclones can place covering fire whilst staying completely safe because of reposition. Hopefully this is enough infantry control to allow me to place jacks like the minuteman or centurion far enough forward to contest zones and flags to keep me in scenario. Hammersmiths are useful enough melee beaters but beat-back and their chain attack provides some positional tricks. Ironclads could work but I prefer the extra point of armour. A minuteman with countermeasures on it can quickly get around or possibly even behind a judicator and if they have to send it to deal with the little guy then it's probably a worthwhile trade. Caine and Ace are there for sniping out nuisances and intend to play as safely back as possible. Kraye is probably the best target for fire-for-effect since even though it's not an impressive gun it's still focus efficiency to help stretch Kraye's strained resources.
Beyond fighting protectorate I also think this list would be (at least) interesting to play into the likes of Cryx, minions and mercs. (Ossrum will also hopefully not like a countermeasures jack diving into the midst of his lines.) So, to the forum at large, could anyone please offer their opinions and thoughts about this list and if they have their own ideas (preferably a little off the wall maybe) then please share them. I want to talk list ideas and discuss what it is hoped they will do as well as talk through the weaknesses and issues that they will also have.
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
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Post by gmonkey on Nov 2, 2018 14:04:07 GMT
I'm a huge fan of marshalled cyclones on Runewood or a stormblade captain, in part because of the repo 5. Kraye gives that without marshall limitations, so it sounds great. Covering fire is absolutely key in jack-heavy lists to protect the jacks from weapon master infantry, and the cyclone's covering fire is the only POW12 one you can get. The list looks fun. I need to comment on the Nemo1 thing. Before themes, I'd play Nemo1 all the time with Thorn and Lanyssa Ryssyl. Nowadays, I only play him in heavy metal. Anything else qualifies as - yes - a jank list. I wrote up a really long caster review back then if you're interested.
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Post by darkangeldentist on Nov 2, 2018 14:19:11 GMT
I've been a fan of the cyclone model since its release and I'm always trying to shoehorn one into a list if I can. The change from two 3" templates to a single wall template was in some respects a bit of a buff since it's much easier to use a wall template to defend pieces than with circular ones. I have quite high hopes for the list, even into stuff like skorne because cyclones are still perfectly happy throwing or slamming stuff away when it's too tough to kill.
You're more than welcome to comment on Nemo1, I think I read that article when you first posted about it here, will read it again later but I do agree that Nemo1 is quite a lot of fun in the right circumstances. The reason I said the list was bad was because of the list I'd made and how I had decided to use it. Stormwall is not best happy into Skorne and I'd also taken Rowdy, Thorn and a firefly to make up a very amusing looking but less than ideal list to throw into a Naaresh beast theme list. On the flip side I did have a hilarious feat turn managing to stack ragman's buff and the firefly aura onto a couple of his beasts. The feat hit finished off a half dead light and left a wounded gladiator on just 3 boxes. (Stormwall had successfully killed a cannoneer and taken half it's boxes earlier in the turn.) The whole game was great fun and with a more thoughtfully designed list I believe Nemo to be a very capable warcaster.
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
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Post by gmonkey on Nov 2, 2018 17:46:47 GMT
In terms of jank, my favorite at the moment is my Caine2 list. It's out of theme so that I can bring both rangers and GMCAs, and the two heavies I bring to hold position are Gallant on Jakes (Because it's a DEF15 heavy who's immune to knockdown,slams,and magic) and an Avenger on the Gun Mage captain who will get Fire for Effect. If the avenger crits, which is more likely because of FFE, the blast damage gets 4 dice.
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Post by darkangeldentist on Nov 2, 2018 17:58:06 GMT
I don't think crit' brutal damage works like that unfortunately. My memory for the wording recalls that "on a critical hit, add an additional damage dice to the model directly hit" so even with AOE weapons you don't get the additional die for blast damage. Thunderbolt is similarly worded but significantly different upon examination. "Enemy models hit are pushed D3" directly away, on a critical hit models are also knocked down..."
I want to try Caine2 again, I think there's quite a lot for him to take advantage of in the current meta although I do wish they would go back to the original wording for his attack types but remove trick shot and replace it with something else. (Blessed would be my preferred option.) Still worth having some fun with.
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
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Post by gmonkey on Nov 2, 2018 18:12:23 GMT
I don't think crit' brutal damage works like that unfortunately. Crap, you're right. Now that's... less good. :-\ Cygnar just can't catch any breaks. I swear they're going to nerf Nemo2 and Blaize in the next CID.
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Post by darkangeldentist on Nov 2, 2018 18:59:17 GMT
Haha...
On the brightside I'm really quite tempted to go back and investigate the possibilities of gun mage marshalled jacks. For the likes of Caine1, Sturgis or even Maddox I can see some interesting and amusing potential for a sniped gun mage marshalled grenadier with trencher mechanic support. Turn1 (assuming you go first), advance dig-in with the mechanics close by and put snipe on it. There on out just lob 3 POW 15 (with POW 9 blast damage) every turn with thunderbolt or crit' brutal rounds. If Falk gets his rune marked shot onto the target then it's POW 17 and Arlan can give it a focus on top. It's way too much effort in normal circumstances to pull off though.
Most straight-forwardly solid option to my eyes is a charger with Arlan for a focus and fire-for effect from either Caine2 or Caine0. Two fully boosted shots a turn with the jack marshal benefits on top of the magical damage and gun mage shot types. Still quite a lot of resources and investment into a very fragile module but it was very fun the 2 games I tried it out.
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
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Post by gmonkey on Nov 2, 2018 19:23:59 GMT
My favorite list (Stryker1 Heavy Metal) has a marshalled Cyclone. Between the repo 5 from Runewood, the possible RAT10 shots from Strike True! plus aiming, and the 2d3 POW 14 RAT 8 shots from that other jack marshall thing, he's good. Aim for benefits, then move 5" afterwards.
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Post by darkangeldentist on Nov 2, 2018 19:33:45 GMT
Do you think it would work in Storm division? The storm blade captain has the same drive and that list has possibly even less trouble with armour. The captain is also quite a bit harder to kill. (+2 ARM base with a further +2 if he's base to base with a jack).
What's the Stryker1 list by the way?
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
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Post by gmonkey on Nov 3, 2018 3:44:12 GMT
What's the Stryker1 list by the way? Stryker1 Squire Lancer Centurian Centurian Charger Storm Strider Journeyman Charger Arlan Runewood *Cyclone Sword Knights (min)
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
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Post by gmonkey on Nov 3, 2018 4:03:15 GMT
I call the list Fun Line. It's all about attritioning for a few rounds, two arcane shielded centurions and a unit of blurred sword knights. Then at the right moment the lancer runs up and Stryker arcs an earthquake with reroll then two chargers, the strider, and the cyclone shoot the enemy caster to death.
A storm division version would bea different list. Not bad, just different.
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Post by elmagnifico on Nov 6, 2018 16:30:34 GMT
My latest lists, written with all seriousness but utilizing small-based storm knights (Silver Line!) so I say it counts as jank, have a marshalled 'jack.
However my Stormblade Captain goes the opposite direction, melee instead of guns, picking up a Stormclad. With Maddox putting Assail on it, the Stormclad can charge twelve inches, and if she feats and the Captain does Crusher, hits at PS 24. If Arlan empowers it, arrives with two focus and a crush token, so four Generator Blade hits, one boosted from charge, with Beat Back.
I haven't lived the dream to go in on a colossal with this yet, but I can't wait for when I can...
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
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Post by gmonkey on Nov 6, 2018 20:04:41 GMT
I've lived the dream with a stormblade captain marshalling a stormclad, and Arlan nearby. Stryker 2 supplied positive charge, and the thing got four attacks at P&S23, and then an extra attack from Stryker2's feat. With help from the stormblade captain, I took out two Khador heavies, and it was glorious.
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Post by darkangeldentist on Nov 14, 2018 1:50:24 GMT
So I finally got a game with the Kraye list (went with trencher mechanics over Lynus & Edrea) so actually have something to talk about that isn't theory-machine.
First though, thanks for the replies. That Stryker list looks tough to deal with and possibly rather a lot of fun to use. I hope the sword knights have given you some good performances. elmagnifico, what does the list look like? Props for putting sliver line on the table, I agree that counts as jank right off the bat but it's always easier to see what people are doing when the whole list is there to see.
Ok, back to my own adventures. Kraye was up against Skorne led by Makeda 2. My opponent was trying out a Masters of war list that comprised of the following;
Makeda2 Aptemis Marketh Titan gladiator Titan bronzeback Basilisk Krea
Max Cetrati with Vorkesh Max Swordsmen with CA Max Swordsmen with CA Tyrant & standard bearer Min pain giver beast handlers
Scenario was spread the net and Skorne won the roll-off opting to go first. I worried a little about the usual problems skorne pose Cygnar but since he only had two titans and all those infantry were ideally countered by the cyclones, this looked like it could be a good match-up for me. The table had a good spread of terrain with the central circle zone partially containing a largish building to one side (which encroached on the left rectangular zone as well) and small fog bank to the right of it. There were a couple of linear obstacles, a large forest and hill plus another small building. Skorne's first turn was mostly running, The titans were too slow to reach the central zone (my opponent had a bit of brain-fart and forgot what controlled which zone for a moment) but the swordsmen to either flank surged up to almost the halfway mark. In response on my right flank the cyclones put down their covering fire, taking advantage of the terrain and effectively boxing out one unit of swordsmen. On the other flank, near my flag I had Caine, Ace and a minuteman move up so as to be able to threaten with their guns next turn if he tried to contest my flag. With tramples and repositions the hammersmiths and centurion got into position get anything that came into the centre zone. Admonition went on a minuteman and Caine put fire for effect on Kraye. I was able to get some shots onto the gladiator with Kraye and Ace, my dice were kind and due to poor positioning the titan was not within range of the krea so I was able to inflict about 15 damage plus kill a beast handler from a trick shot. Turn 2 and the covering fire problem for my opponent was clear. The bronzeback was able to run up behind the fog bank and although neither of us would be able to charge through it, the beast would be able to trample across most of the centre zone or into my rectangular zone in his next turn should I leave anything close enough to it. Cetrati and gladiator moved up into the centre zone as well but kept further back. (In the case of the cetrati, because of shield wall.) The swordsmen on the left flank ran again, about half to try and block my light jacks from getting to his zone and the rest to occupy it. Things were tougher on the right flank where covering fire prevented him trying the same with the other unit. Most tried their best to continue up the table and ran back to the centre of the field and forwards to block any straight charge I might try on his gladiator who had Makeda behind it. Makeda cast deflection and upkept storm rager (which had gone onto Vorkesh in round 1) leaving her with 2 camp. My second turn proved quite brutal in retaliation to this, on the left Caine, Kraye and the mechanics cleared a path for a minuteman to pop forwards into the left zone and kill all but the officer of the swordsmen unit. (Although he had to stay death to keep him in there.) Ace then moved around the building to get LOS to him and thunderbolted him out of the zone so even stay death couldn't save him from me scoring that zone. Caine was also sat on my flag, happy to face an enemy who possessed no guns whatsoever. Hammersmiths cleared the nearest swordsmen from the other unit (making Makeda run out of fury to stay death) and were able to reposition to safety, just toeing the centre zone for one of them. The centurion imprinted and just hung back in my right hand zone whilst the cyclones switched covering fire to now block the centre zone, penning the last few swordsmen inside. The other minuteman was also able to kill several more swordsmen and reposition around a building. I scored 3 points.
My opponent saw things were pretty hopeless but tried to see if the bronzeback could take down the centurion even without initials. Rush and enrage were applied and it trampled over to the centurion and proceeded to hammer on it's sturdy frame. He was unlucky and failed to cripple a single system. He used stay death to get some of his swordsmen through the covering fire but they were relegated to clearing off the mechanics who had put themselves inbetween them and the hammersmith. He forgot to run Marketh over to his flag and with my still uncontested I went to 4 point to nothing so would auto-win in my next turn.
My opponent made mistakes, which always helps I guess but it was an very positive first game for the Kraye list. Going second is definitely a boon for this list so that you can pick the side that will let you best abuse covering fire. Kraye's battlegroup is marvellously mobile and I rather liked the utility Caine and Ace brought for helping clear off chaff so I had clear charge lanes. Even in the face of tricks like Stay death. I want another game with this list now...
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Post by elmagnifico on Nov 14, 2018 15:54:27 GMT
Nice. I love that Kraye is getting work done for you. Infantry out the wazzoo has always been my weakness when running him, which I try to mitigate with Thunderhead, but even with Repo 5 and Admonition it always feels like I'm not getting 20 points out of him. Perhaps I ought to try the Cyclones, see how well that works out. As for Silver Line, there's two lists I'm trying to make work, depending on how desperate I am to crack armor, both featuring the Shiny Blade-Stick Boys in an essential role. Both are centered around a core set of synergies, specifically Stormblade glaive blasts, and the fact that if every single buff gets stacked on an unfortunate target they get up to POW 18 on the gunshot. The Stormguard, since I was bringing them for their damage buff and the gun range is short, get thrown up front and into the fray as charge spoilers and tarpitting chaff, which with a buff or two they do decently at, ish. This first list, under Maddox and featuring the Stormclad Of Doom, will absolutely melt armor, witnessed by the fact I threw this list into a Lucant Clockwork Legions list, did actual work under his feat turn, and was actually winning attrition on the infantry flank until the opposite one collapsed and I lost on clock. See Also, two-shotting a perfectly healthy pair of heavy vectors with the Stormclad under feat. conflictchamber.com/#c1201b_-0efN9B9c9Fanaj9cdh9HdNa5a6a9Cygnar Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Storm Division [Maddox 1] Major Beth Maddox [+30] - Centurion [17] - Firefly [8] - Hammersmith [12] Captain Arlan Strangewayes [0(4)] Journeyman Warcaster [0(4)] - Firefly [8] Stormblade Captain [5] - Stormclad [18] Silver Line Stormguard (max) [16] Stormblade Infantry [10] - Stormblade Infantry Officer & Standard [5] - Stormblade Infantry Storm Gunner (3) [6] This second list is what I made based on those experiences. Once again, the focal point is the Stormblade guns and buffing them, but there they get Deadeye as well as Snipe, helping the gunners hit so everybody gets some lightning. Caine also helps with if someone brought oodles of infantry. Haven't had a chance to field the full brunt of this list against someone yet, but in a 25 point game the Stormblades, who were missing their gunners due to point constraints, very nearly removed Typhon at range, which is not nothing. Given time and funds I'll likely swap the Stormclad out, either for more Stormblades or some Lances to hold a flank. Rhupert is there since Caine sadly does not have Onslaught on his card and only having pathfinder on Ace hurts. conflictchamber.com/#c1201b_-0e8Vf59B9canaj9c7zdh9HdNa5a6a8Cygnar Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Storm Division [Caine 1] Lieutenant Allister Caine [+30] - Ace [10] - Centurion [17] - Firefly [8] Captain Arlan Strangewayes [0(4)] Journeyman Warcaster [0(4)] - Firefly [8] Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord [4] Stormblade Captain [5] - Stormclad [18] Silver Line Stormguard (max) [16] Stormblade Infantry [10] - Stormblade Infantry Officer & Standard [5] - Stormblade Infantry Storm Gunner (2) [4]
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