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Post by macdaddy on Nov 5, 2018 16:53:47 GMT
Can we please move the discussion back to secret masters shenanigans. Like Brets list with a raptor, una1, and a couple wardens that he had success with at WMW?
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Post by elshinare on Nov 6, 2018 17:29:07 GMT
So, first, about the well...6 points boyos that want to say it's a 5 point model...we have 1 5 point model we can bring in...which is rarely if ever the model of choice, the rest or 2-4 points. I look at it this way, it counts towards free points instead of it brings free points.
NOW, Stormraptor is good now? 1 or 2? What caster in secret masters? with 1Una having thunder chicken(or thunder fart chicken because of the new ability)? I may buy one and throw it in CoTW with Kromac2 and 1Una.
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Post by chocobsessed on Nov 6, 2018 17:37:48 GMT
I won the WMW invitational with secret masters in my pair. AMA
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Post by Trollock on Nov 6, 2018 21:03:08 GMT
I won the WMW invitational with secret masters in my pair. AMA I have a question! Looking at your list, it ALMOST like you are playing non-themed. Sac pawn is a great complement to shield guard and you get 3 free points, but the theme does almost nothing at all. Was your list built just to dumpster shooty lists that your iona list did not want, and you accept that it is probably a weaker list than some in many match ups (the "standard" krueger 2 list seems stronger in most match ups), or is there some secret tech that makes this a good list over all?
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Post by chocobsessed on Nov 6, 2018 21:36:51 GMT
I have a question! Looking at your list, it ALMOST like you are playing non-themed. I'd agree that it's almost a non-theme list, but the almost is really important in there. I went over the differences between it and the bones of orboros list it is based on in the circle wins wmw thread (and I'm sure that's far from the last time I'll do so), but secret masters absolutely contributed to the list positively over non-theme 3 points is not nothing, but more importantly, if you want your storm Raptor on Una1, the sac pawn removes a lot of the risk from multiple low pow shots or from sprays (which are a huge risk since she wants to hug the back of the storm Raptor and windstorm doesn't protect from sprays)
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Nov 6, 2018 23:46:45 GMT
I have a question! Looking at your list, it ALMOST like you are playing non-themed. I'd agree that it's almost a non-theme list, but the almost is really important in there. I went over the differences between it and the bones of orboros list it is based on in the circle wins wmw thread (and I'm sure that's far from the last time I'll do so), but secret masters absolutely contributed to the list positively over non-theme 3 points is not nothing, but more importantly, if you want your storm Raptor on Una1, the sac pawn removes a lot of the risk from multiple low pow shots or from sprays (which are a huge risk since she wants to hug the back of the storm Raptor and windstorm doesn't protect from sprays) I can understand the bird is good into gravediggers, but I don't see many other matchups where that list is good and it should probably lose into quite a lot of other cygnar pairs. So what matchups did you take it for?
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Post by chocobsessed on Nov 7, 2018 0:21:04 GMT
Windstorm is good against cygnar. Period. Having a speed 7 heavy (not a gargantuan, only its gun is gargantuan-class) with windstorm and a half is amazing against cygnar, and that's even if you never get to do the hilarious guardian beast disruption trick.
Also, are you seriously suggesting that the cygnar player plays Storm Division or a colossal into Krueger2? That seems like an incredibly bad plan.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Nov 7, 2018 0:43:26 GMT
Windstorm is good against cygnar. Period. Having a speed 7 heavy (not a gargantuan, only its gun is gargantuan-class) with windstorm and a half is amazing against cygnar, and that's even if you never get to do the hilarious guardian beast disruption trick. Also, are you seriously suggesting that the cygnar player plays Storm Division or a colossal into Krueger2? That seems like an incredibly bad plan. Playing Storm Division into Krueger 2 when it isn't Bones isn't a bad plan at all, tbh (and isn't terrible even if it is Bones, imo). I think Stryker 2 has a good game there. Colossal is a bad plan, but that's because Cygnar's colossals are pretty bad period. Cygnar's natural gun ranges are long enough that the -3 from the Bird isn't too harmful because you can often stay out of Wind Storm and still shoot, Sloan is the obvious candidate here who doesn't mind Range 13 Hunters and, tbh, doesn't mind range 8" hunters either since thats still 14" of threat against the Bird and it will go down quickly to her. Its the Electrical immunity that hurts a lot of Cygnar lists because of their reliance on Striders, but I'm seeing the Gravediggers + Striders list pairing being bullied out of the meta and someone like Kara might be right there to pick up the slack. But we are getting stuck in the weeds because you didn't answer my question, what matchups is this list looking to play into?
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Post by chocobsessed on Nov 7, 2018 0:47:54 GMT
Oops, split my thoughts between two threads : lormahordes.freeforums.net/thread/8397/wmw-circle-victory?page=23. Una + Storm Raptor. Obviously this is the biggest change and the reason to give up Mannikins and 8 free points. The storm Raptor under Krueger2 is a huge pain for your opponent, especially if you go first. It can scalpel out key pieces(ignoring all Los blockers except buildings), it can clear an entire zone's worth of infantry by itself (while also scalpelling out any important solos that wander too close) - and between the feat and guardian beast disruptions it's actually really difficult to damage even in melee. It massively improves your Cygnar, Devourer's host and Harbinger exemplar interdiction matchups - which are a big chunk of what Iona doesn't want to play into, and everything on that list that I expected to see in the invitational
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Post by oncomingstorm on Nov 7, 2018 0:54:12 GMT
Windstorm is good against cygnar. Period. Having a speed 7 heavy (not a gargantuan, only its gun is gargantuan-class) with windstorm and a half is amazing against cygnar, and that's even if you never get to do the hilarious guardian beast disruption trick. Also, are you seriously suggesting that the cygnar player plays Storm Division or a colossal into Krueger2? That seems like an incredibly bad plan. Playing Storm Division into Krueger 2 when it isn't Bones isn't a bad plan at all, tbh (and isn't terrible even if it is Bones, imo). I think Stryker 2 has a good game there. Colossal is a bad plan, but that's because Cygnar's colossals are pretty bad period. Cygnar's natural gun ranges are long enough that the -3 from the Bird isn't too harmful because you can often stay out of Wind Storm and still shoot, Sloan is the obvious candidate here who doesn't mind Range 13 Hunters and, tbh, doesn't mind range 8" hunters either since thats still 14" of threat against the Bird and it will go down quickly to her. Its the Electrical immunity that hurts a lot of Cygnar lists because of their reliance on Striders, but I'm seeing the Gravediggers + Striders list pairing being bullied out of the meta and someone like Kara might be right there to pick up the slack. But we are getting stuck in the weeds because you didn't answer my question, what matchups is this list looking to play into? Stryker2 is really, really bad into Krueger. He has no tools to mitigate TK. He (typically) has no outs for rebuke (the merc slot is nearly always piper). Decel is...not enough to keep storm lances alive to Bones shooting. And his personal output is neutered by krueger2's assassination threat. I've played this matchup, and it's not good. God help the stryker player if the take any lightning based synergy pieces into Krueger2, also, because those points are almost completely wasted. Storm Strider's aren't exactly made for stomping. -3 range makes you more likely to have to come into windstorm to shoot the storm raptor. Krueger2's not scared of range 14 or less guns, and guess what? -3 range on range 16 guns makes them less than range 14. The bird just has to not play too far forward, and boom - if you want to shoot it, you're at -8 range. And that's without getting into the fact that trying to skirt windstorm with a gunline is typically a recipe for losing on scenario, as krueger proceeds to move up, feat on most of your army, then score unconstested for 3 straight turns.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Nov 7, 2018 1:25:43 GMT
Playing Storm Division into Krueger 2 when it isn't Bones isn't a bad plan at all, tbh (and isn't terrible even if it is Bones, imo). I think Stryker 2 has a good game there. Colossal is a bad plan, but that's because Cygnar's colossals are pretty bad period. Cygnar's natural gun ranges are long enough that the -3 from the Bird isn't too harmful because you can often stay out of Wind Storm and still shoot, Sloan is the obvious candidate here who doesn't mind Range 13 Hunters and, tbh, doesn't mind range 8" hunters either since thats still 14" of threat against the Bird and it will go down quickly to her. Its the Electrical immunity that hurts a lot of Cygnar lists because of their reliance on Striders, but I'm seeing the Gravediggers + Striders list pairing being bullied out of the meta and someone like Kara might be right there to pick up the slack. But we are getting stuck in the weeds because you didn't answer my question, what matchups is this list looking to play into? Stryker2 is really, really bad into Krueger. He has no tools to mitigate TK. He (typically) has no outs for rebuke (the merc slot is nearly always piper). Decel is...not enough to keep storm lances alive to Bones shooting. And his personal output is neutered by krueger2's assassination threat. I've played this matchup, and it's not good. God help the stryker player if the take any lightning based synergy pieces into Krueger2, also, because those points are almost completely wasted. Storm Strider's aren't exactly made for stomping. -3 range makes you more likely to have to come into windstorm to shoot the storm raptor. Krueger2's not scared of range 14 or less guns, and guess what? -3 range on range 16 guns makes them less than range 14. The bird just has to not play too far forward, and boom - if you want to shoot it, you're at -8 range. And that's without getting into the fact that trying to skirt windstorm with a gunline is typically a recipe for losing on scenario, as krueger proceeds to move up, feat on most of your army, then score unconstested for 3 straight turns. I've found the matchup not bad for Stryker simply because a lot of Krueger's tricks run into efficiency problems. As long as you aren't dumb and put Arcane Shield on the table, you can play the game. At some point Stryker is going to get his list hitting Kruegers list and its going to hurt a lot. Your maths on Wind Storm predicates the game as working in Straight lines and ignores the reality that the Wind Storm is a circle. You can often avoid wind Storm by moving to the sides where the Bird is placed and getting longer range shots in then. Skirting Wind Storm doesn't mean you are suddenly winning on Scenario, its not like that Krueger list has much scenario trash to throw into opponents zones. Wind Storm is always far stronger on the Dojo than it is on the table. Things like Rebuking a unit of Storm Lances is inherently pretty hopeful and misses some of the point. Not only is it a 3 focus commitment from Krueger (with a not unreasonable chance of failure due to Def 15 being quite easily attainable for lances) and that list lacks arc nodes so it has to be Krueger himself doing it but the secret is that a rebuked unit can still do quite a lot of damage and needs to be dealt with. Rebuked Lances can still walk 10" and put out a bunch of Pow 15 pokes. Rebuked Storm Blades are very sad, but they still hang around being jerks that your Infantry Clearing raptor can't deal with. Like I said, I can see the Raptor build being strong into Gravediggers + Some kind of Storm Strider list but I think it might be slightly hopeful when facing other forms of Cygnar. Vs Tharn you probably have a reasonably good game unless its either (maybe)Krueger1, 2 or Wurmwood, but since everyone seems to be all in on Iona that might be less of a concern. Krueger 2 bones looks like it should beat Krueger 2 Secret Masters and probably has a reasonable game vs Iona.
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Post by frumiousbandersnatch on Nov 7, 2018 1:32:15 GMT
Stryker2 is really, really bad into Krueger. He has no tools to mitigate TK. He (typically) has no outs for rebuke (the merc slot is nearly always piper). Decel is...not enough to keep storm lances alive to Bones shooting. And his personal output is neutered by krueger2's assassination threat. I've played this matchup, and it's not good. God help the stryker player if the take any lightning based synergy pieces into Krueger2, also, because those points are almost completely wasted. Storm Strider's aren't exactly made for stomping. -3 range makes you more likely to have to come into windstorm to shoot the storm raptor. Krueger2's not scared of range 14 or less guns, and guess what? -3 range on range 16 guns makes them less than range 14. The bird just has to not play too far forward, and boom - if you want to shoot it, you're at -8 range. And that's without getting into the fact that trying to skirt windstorm with a gunline is typically a recipe for losing on scenario, as krueger proceeds to move up, feat on most of your army, then score unconstested for 3 straight turns. Wind Storm is always far stronger on the Dojo than it is on the table. Well, one person here is in the dojo. The other speaking from practical, empirical, tabletop evidence.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Nov 7, 2018 1:51:08 GMT
Stryker2 is really, really bad into Krueger. He has no tools to mitigate TK. He (typically) has no outs for rebuke (the merc slot is nearly always piper). Decel is...not enough to keep storm lances alive to Bones shooting. And his personal output is neutered by krueger2's assassination threat. I've played this matchup, and it's not good. God help the stryker player if the take any lightning based synergy pieces into Krueger2, also, because those points are almost completely wasted. Storm Strider's aren't exactly made for stomping. -3 range makes you more likely to have to come into windstorm to shoot the storm raptor. Krueger2's not scared of range 14 or less guns, and guess what? -3 range on range 16 guns makes them less than range 14. The bird just has to not play too far forward, and boom - if you want to shoot it, you're at -8 range. And that's without getting into the fact that trying to skirt windstorm with a gunline is typically a recipe for losing on scenario, as krueger proceeds to move up, feat on most of your army, then score unconstested for 3 straight turns. I've found the matchup not bad for Stryker simply because a lot of Krueger's tricks run into efficiency problems. As long as you aren't dumb and put Arcane Shield on the table, you can play the game. At some point Stryker is going to get his list hitting Kruegers list and its going to hurt a lot. The last game I played against Stryker2, the Stryker player was only able to get attacks on me by running and feating (then losing Stryker on the following turn, though the viable alternative was to just kill most of his stuff. The game before that, he made less than 5 melee attacks, and was picked apart over the course of several turns. It is by no means a guarantee that a low model count melee list like stryker actually gets to effectively alpha Krueger2, ever. In point of fact, against such lists, the 'can't touch this' gameplan is typically in full effect.'
If the opponent gets to roll dice against krueger, you're already playing a game Krueger2 does not want to be playing. Your maths on Wind Storm predicates the game as working in Straight lines and ignores the reality that the Wind Storm is a circle. You can often avoid wind Storm by moving to the sides where the Bird is placed and getting longer range shots in then. Similarly, Krueger can place himself between the storm raptor and the heaviest concentration of shooting, letting it play further forward. Also, there is no reason for the Storm Raptor to play forward in that matchup. It's role is likely to toe a zone, threaten anything that comes into it with melee, and put assassination pressure on Sloan herself while taking shots into targets of opportunity. It's range 14 with 3" reposition, it doesn't need to play super far forward in every matchup.Skirting Wind Storm doesn't mean you are suddenly winning on Scenario, its not like that Krueger list has much scenario trash to throw into opponents zones. Wind Storm is always far stronger on the Dojo than it is on the table. If the scenario is live, it sure does. Typical play sees Krueger score 2-3 points on standoff, mirage, recon II, and Spread the Net on feat turn (less likely on invasion, and only if the opponent is a potato on Pit II) and contest all enemy elements. Next turn sees typically sees the enemy score a point, but also fail to contest all of krueger's zones (-2 speed is a hell of a drug, especially combined with rebuke). Krueger player then mops up next turn and scores the 2-3 scenario points they need to win. This is fairly typical krueger2 play into gunlines.
As for scenario trash...shifting stones are all you need. Especially since there's not much in need of 'porting in this list, no real fury issues, and you don't need to worry about blocking charge lanes. It's probably better in Bones, but Shifting Stones are one of the best contesting pieces in the game. Things like Rebuking a unit of Storm Lances is inherently pretty hopeful and misses some of the point. Not only is it a 3 focus commitment from Krueger (with a not unreasonable chance of failure due to Def 15 being quite easily attainable for lances) and that list lacks arc nodes so it has to be Krueger himself doing it but the secret is that a rebuked unit can still do quite a lot of damage and needs to be dealt with. Rebuked Lances can still walk 10" and put out a bunch of Pow 15 pokes. Rebuked Storm Blades are very sad, but they still hang around being jerks that your Infantry Clearing raptor can't deal with. I have not played Krueger2 without an arc node, which I suspect colors my opinion here (nor would I, IMO the lack of arc node neuters his status as a pivot). However, I do think you're not giving rebuke enough credit here. Like I said, I can see the Raptor build being strong into Gravediggers + Some kind of Storm Strider list but I think it might be slightly hopeful when facing other forms of Cygnar. Vs Tharn you probably have a reasonably good game unless its either (maybe)Krueger1, 2 or Wurmwood, but since everyone seems to be all in on Iona that might be less of a concern. Krueger 2 bones looks like it should beat Krueger 2 Secret Masters and probably has a reasonable game vs Iona.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Nov 7, 2018 2:00:28 GMT
Wind Storm is always far stronger on the Dojo than it is on the table. Well, one person here is in the dojo. The other speaking from practical, empirical, tabletop evidence. That's a pretty silly thing to assume. You don't think I am playing games as well? Come on, now. If you want to discuss, at least discuss with some basic assumptions that players aren't basing their opinions on nothing.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Nov 7, 2018 2:12:19 GMT
I've found the matchup not bad for Stryker simply because a lot of Krueger's tricks run into efficiency problems. As long as you aren't dumb and put Arcane Shield on the table, you can play the game. At some point Stryker is going to get his list hitting Kruegers list and its going to hurt a lot. The last game I played against Stryker2, the Stryker player was only able to get attacks on me by running and feating (then losing Stryker on the following turn, though the viable alternative was to just kill most of his stuff. The game before that, he made less than 5 melee attacks, and was picked apart over the course of several turns. It is by no means a guarantee that a low model count melee list like stryker actually gets to effectively alpha Krueger2, ever. In point of fact, against such lists, the 'can't touch this' gameplan is typically in full effect.'
If the opponent gets to roll dice against krueger, you're already playing a game Krueger2 does not want to be playing. Your maths on Wind Storm predicates the game as working in Straight lines and ignores the reality that the Wind Storm is a circle. You can often avoid wind Storm by moving to the sides where the Bird is placed and getting longer range shots in then. Similarly, Krueger can place himself between the storm raptor and the heaviest concentration of shooting, letting it play further forward. Also, there is no reason for the Storm Raptor to play forward in that matchup. It's role is likely to toe a zone, threaten anything that comes into it with melee, and put assassination pressure on Sloan herself while taking shots into targets of opportunity. It's range 14 with 3" reposition, it doesn't need to play super far forward in every matchup.Skirting Wind Storm doesn't mean you are suddenly winning on Scenario, its not like that Krueger list has much scenario trash to throw into opponents zones. Wind Storm is always far stronger on the Dojo than it is on the table. If the scenario is live, it sure does. Typical play sees Krueger score 2-3 points on standoff, mirage, recon II, and Spread the Net on feat turn (less likely on invasion, and only if the opponent is a potato on Pit II) and contest all enemy elements. Next turn sees typically sees the enemy score a point, but also fail to contest all of krueger's zones (-2 speed is a hell of a drug, especially combined with rebuke). Krueger player then mops up next turn and scores the 2-3 scenario points they need to win. This is fairly typical krueger2 play into gunlines.
As for scenario trash...shifting stones are all you need. Especially since there's not much in need of 'porting in this list, no real fury issues, and you don't need to worry about blocking charge lanes. It's probably better in Bones, but Shifting Stones are one of the best contesting pieces in the game. Things like Rebuking a unit of Storm Lances is inherently pretty hopeful and misses some of the point. Not only is it a 3 focus commitment from Krueger (with a not unreasonable chance of failure due to Def 15 being quite easily attainable for lances) and that list lacks arc nodes so it has to be Krueger himself doing it but the secret is that a rebuked unit can still do quite a lot of damage and needs to be dealt with. Rebuked Lances can still walk 10" and put out a bunch of Pow 15 pokes. Rebuked Storm Blades are very sad, but they still hang around being jerks that your Infantry Clearing raptor can't deal with. I have not played Krueger2 without an arc node, which I suspect colors my opinion here (nor would I, IMO the lack of arc node neuters his status as a pivot). However, I do think you're not giving rebuke enough credit here. Like I said, I can see the Raptor build being strong into Gravediggers + Some kind of Storm Strider list but I think it might be slightly hopeful when facing other forms of Cygnar. Vs Tharn you probably have a reasonably good game unless its either (maybe)Krueger1, 2 or Wurmwood, but since everyone seems to be all in on Iona that might be less of a concern. Krueger 2 bones looks like it should beat Krueger 2 Secret Masters and probably has a reasonable game vs Iona. Now we are getting into the weeds a little. I hate this kind of discussion because it ignores table realities entirely. For instance, if Krueger is in between the Raptor and the opponents army and the Raptor is toeing a zone that means that anyone with a reasonable threat range can charge the bird and hit Krueger from now on. In the aforementioned Stryker 2 vs Krueger game this means that getting to Krueger with Stryker is quite trivial. But outside of that one matchup it is very common to have quite long range pieces who now have an angle where before there was none. This also means that Krueger is actually quite far up on the table if the Raptor is in a meaningful zone on the table. That isn't instant death, but it certainly puts Krueger in a far more risky position. Plainly put, you cannot assume that Krueger is simultaneously affecting the relevant table without also assuming he is in some level of risk that requires a large expenditure of your list to mitigate. I have absolutely no idea how you are getting such large scenario swings against competent opponents. You can generally score some zones, but getting shifting stones at opponents flags and zones seems completely unlikely to me, especially since doing that means they are unlikely to be protected by Wind Storm.
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