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Post by michael on Oct 25, 2018 16:00:29 GMT
I came within spitting distance of one-shotting a warpwolf in a single attack with a Conquest during a Spell Draft tournament in MK II. Vlad1’s feat for double speed and free charges, then the Conquest had both Strength of Granite (+4 STR) and one of the +2 STR animi on it. It was hitting at P+S 28 (remember, we gained a P+S during the edition change) which was, at the time, either dice + 10 or dice + 11. My charge damage roll was crap, though, and I had to hit it twice... Anyway, I actually wrote up my new iteration of B2 today. It made me so giddy that I was giggling with glee. I think I’m onto something.... However, I guarantee I will show it to somebody and they’ll say “that is so OP!!!1!1!” without carefully considering how it works and the possible counters. It’s.... strong.... I will admit that. But if I’ve done my math correctly, it’s no worse than several other things in game. It just has that shock “Wow!” factor. I should show it to those nozzles (you know the ~4 people I mean) on the CID forums and watch their hyperbole explode with unadulterated anti-Khador rhetoric and vitriol. No doubt we’d hear all about how this would mean no one would ever play another caster or faction ever and how it makes everything else obsolete, oh no the sky is falling, and so forth. Definitely gotta get this guy on the table against another person this weekend...
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Post by hocestbellum on Oct 25, 2018 17:08:50 GMT
I feel like you've hyped it up too much; it'll never be able to match the expectations now!
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Post by michael on Oct 25, 2018 17:18:18 GMT
I feel like you've hyped it up too much; it'll never be able to match the expectations now! It’s pretty cool. I just don’t know if it’s too much. I might need to reign it in. We’ll see.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Oct 25, 2018 22:40:36 GMT
michael, there's absolutely nothing now you could post which could live up to the hype. I'm braced for disappointment. Prove me wrong!
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Post by michael on Oct 25, 2018 23:28:11 GMT
michael, there's absolutely nothing now you could post which could live up to the hype. I'm braced for disappointment. Prove me wrong! I’ll give you one hint: It’s for Butcher2. Okay, now I’ve said too much.
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Post by Netherby on Oct 26, 2018 0:06:36 GMT
Turn after that Butcher2 could have feat-walked to Thagrosh, buuut I roll a 1 on my focus roll. And that's why I stopped playing B2. -- There are plenty of ways you could improve the design. The easiest method of just reducing the randomness (D3+3, etc) is fine. But It's also kinda boring and I don't think PP would go for it? Once you get to D3+3 it becomes of a case of why is it even on him? It's no longer the core of his identity which they want it to be. I don't actually mind the IDEA behind the current design. It's just not executed in a realistic fashion (Casters cannot kill 3 things in melee to get a benefit on the next turn, since they will be DEAD). PP has trouble designing front line casters, in fact they haven't ever succeeded and I don't think you can succeed. Simply a caster that could survive on the front line would be too strong. Any way the idea as I see it is that you get random focus and you have some mechanic to help improve what you get. The all or nothing system they chose doesn't work, but you could work from it to get something that did. Something that I always imagined was a mechanic where things dying in his control area added dice to your focus roll. Allowing you to pick the highest. I don't think it should be just on his personal actions either, battle group should at least also count. There are a lot of options here, like it could be from friendly models dying near him or enemy or both. You probably want to limit how many dice he can get to some number as well. Plenty of knobs to adjust the balance of it. And at the end of the day he still maintains the identity of D6+1 focus pool. You just get actual viable ways of playing your army which allow you to improve your odds of getting a higher result.
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Post by Cryptix on Oct 26, 2018 4:33:12 GMT
michael, there's absolutely nothing now you could post which could live up to the hype. I'm braced for disappointment. Prove me wrong! I’ll give you one hint: It’s for Butcher2. Okay, now I’ve said too much. If you're free this saturday, I can do a vassal game with you and help test it out if you help me test my AK CID stuff.
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Post by borderprince on Oct 26, 2018 4:38:37 GMT
PP has trouble designing front line casters, in fact they haven't ever succeeded and I don't think you can succeed. Simply a caster that could survive on the front line would be too strong. Purely in reaction to this, would Retaliatory Strike be worth considering as a base rule for him? Butcher1 has it via a spell, so it sort of fits. The thinking is that it should deter some melee assassination attempts (short of a colossal, nothing likes a P+S16 WM hit), maybe even prevent them by killing/damaging the model attacking. It won't stop a really dedicated attack, but it will make melee assassination harder.
That still leaves him vulnerable to shooting, but that's what WGK theme benefit and Ragers are for.
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Post by mcdermott on Oct 26, 2018 5:01:31 GMT
PP has trouble designing front line casters, in fact they haven't ever succeeded and I don't think you can succeed. Simply a caster that could survive on the front line would be too strong. Purely in reaction to this, would Retaliatory Strike be worth considering as a base rule for him? Butcher1 has it via a spell, so it sort of fits. The thinking is that it should deter some melee assassination attempts (short of a colossal, nothing likes a P+S16 WM hit), maybe even prevent them by killing/damaging the model attacking. It won't stop a really dedicated attack, but it will make melee assassination harder.
That still leaves him vulnerable to shooting, but that's what WGK theme benefit and Ragers are for. Its also a logical weakness for melee monsters...they should be vulnerable to death from range.
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Post by michael on Oct 26, 2018 12:26:55 GMT
Its also a logical weakness for melee monsters...they should be vulnerable to death from range. Privateer has been more than willing to change that old bit of common wisdom lately. See Barnabus2 and Makeda3 in particular for front-line casters who are highly resistant to shooting.
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Post by michael on Oct 26, 2018 12:28:30 GMT
If you're free this saturday, I can do a vassal game with you and help test it out if you help me test my AK CID stuff. I appreciate it, but I don’t use Vassal. I really, really like the “miniatures” aspect of this game. I have a test game lined up on Sunday, so we’ll see.
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Post by mcdermott on Oct 26, 2018 18:46:35 GMT
Its also a logical weakness for melee monsters...they should be vulnerable to death from range. Privateer has been more than willing to change that old bit of common wisdom lately. See Barnabus2 and Makeda3 in particular for front-line casters who are highly resistant to shooting. Barnabus i sorta understand in that huge base..no protection. Mak3...isn't exactly tearing up the meta but honestly its a fine line to walk, and honestly I'm not sure i consider her a melee monster on the scale of butcher. Honestly I'm not sure one exists though barnabus comes close. Pow 18 WM is....it is certainly a benchmark.
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Post by michael on Oct 26, 2018 20:19:14 GMT
Barnabus i sorta understand in that huge base..no protection. Mak3...isn't exactly tearing up the meta but honestly its a fine line to walk, and honestly I'm not sure i consider her a melee monster on the scale of butcher. Honestly I'm not sure one exists though barnabus comes close. Pow 18 WM is....it is certainly a benchmark. The CID Makeda3 is very, very strong defensively, and an effective P+S 19 (Incite + Battle-Driven, which is not hard to achieve with Shield Guard on her Guardians), with base Overtake, and that feat turn....
She's no slouch.
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Post by Netherby on Oct 26, 2018 23:57:11 GMT
I think that is kinda the compromise they have settled on with 'front-line' casters. The identity has become: They are hard to shoot to death. It would be interesting to have a front-line caster with decent anti-melee tech. There aren't really many existing rules you could use though. A combination of Defensive/Retaliatory Strike with KD/Stationary on hit would be okay (you can already do this with S3). It's not bad for stopping single model assassination runs and has some counter play options. S3 just requires you to knock her down, since her attack comes after yours. Defensive Strike would be better. Now the requirement is getting 2 models into her. Getting a single attack against an attacking model is pretty much never a deterrent for assassination. It needs something else on top. Overall I don't think it really provides that much protection... You need to be able to hit them every time they attack or something
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Oct 27, 2018 0:06:43 GMT
Aside from shooting, part of the problem with designing a front line caster is that they’re really easy to knock down, and then they die easy. That light beast over there you’re not worried about? Psych. It’s gonna take a boosted head butt to knock you down. Or, damn, you get teleported by an arc node so your back arc is showing. If Butcher is really going to make his front line shtick work, he needs to be somewhat better protected from that crap.
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