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Post by onijet01 on Oct 24, 2018 7:05:15 GMT
His desire for a doom reaver elite cadre extends from Butcher2's Mark 2 theme force "The Dogs of War", which represented the very same battle you're talking about, where the butcher's sanity broke completely and he was sent to die by Irusk, only to be brought back by uniting with his Argus hounds (Butcher3). If anything, if PP really wanted to represent the Doom Reaver connection in that theme, just make him resonate more with Wolves of Winter, like changing the upkeep benefit to a focus benefit of some sort. Technically it was due to a young maiden who found his broken body. She nursed him back to health and when he recovered her lord injured her. Butcher snapped and killed everyone at the location but the girl. Returning ro his queen he was suprised to find the cygnar and protectorate officers of the alliance vs cryx and after that found the hounds. (All thats in the warmachine book that butcher 3 was released in) But i think butcher 2 could use blood boon more than anything else
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Post by welshhoppo on Oct 24, 2018 7:52:07 GMT
Butcher has an odd history.
Butcher1 covers the massacre of boarsgate to the invasion of Llael.
Butcher2 covers the invasion of Llael to the siege of Fellig and being betrayed by Sorscha.
Butcher3 covers his return from Ord. After being healed by a young girl (in my avatar) and getting his dogs.
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Post by Cryptix on Oct 24, 2018 8:11:20 GMT
Butcher has an odd history. Butcher1 covers the massacre of boarsgate to the invasion of Llael. Butcher2 covers the invasion of Llael to the siege of Fellig and being betrayed by Sorscha. Butcher3 covers his return from Ord. After being healed by a young girl (in my avatar) and getting his dogs. Ehhh. I don't think she was that young, probably closer to 14.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Oct 24, 2018 8:39:44 GMT
What if they gave Butcher 2 battle plans (or something similar)? So he's not as dependent on focus, and can buff Doomreavers. Question is, what plans? I'm thinking... something that gives concealment (crazy like a fox!), maybe pathfinder (animal instincts/ferocity?), maybe a MAT / melee attack roll buff (so Berserk triggers more reliably, so a single Doomreaver making it to enemy lines does more reliable work).
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Post by hocestbellum on Oct 24, 2018 8:50:22 GMT
Doesn't really strike me as a 'plans' kind of guy, got to say!
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Post by Cryptix on Oct 24, 2018 9:01:56 GMT
Hmm...I agree on no plans, but what about personal buffs?
The Color of Madness - At the beginning of this model's activation, choose one of the following special rules. The same rule cannot be chosen twice in a row. - The Red Rivers - This model gets Overtake. - The Blue Tides - This model gets +2 to attack rolls. - The Green Reefs - This model gains +2 ARM and Steady.
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Post by onijet01 on Oct 24, 2018 9:12:48 GMT
Hmm...I agree on no plans, but what about personal buffs? The Color of Madness - At the beginning of this model's activation, choose one of the following special rules. The same rule cannot be chosen twice in a row. - The Red Rivers - This model gets Overtake. - The Blue Tides - This model gets +2 to attack rolls. - The Green Reefs - This model gains +2 ARM and Steady. What if he gained blood boon (its a free spell) and gained an ability like mekeda 3 were if he is damaged he gains +2spd, str, armor. But as a trade off he is forced to charge during his activation. I mean then he could on 2 focus cast bou dless charge on himself and project a threat to 14 inches (5 speed, +2 boundless, +2 ability, +3 charge, +2 melee)
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Post by Soul Samurai on Oct 24, 2018 9:45:44 GMT
Doesn't really strike me as a 'plans' kind of guy, got to say! That's why I said "or something similar". You can dress it up however you want and it would be no different int terms of fluff or flavour or logic or whatever than "elite cadre" or any sort of non-spell/non-feat buff. INFECTIOUS INSANITY: At this start of this model's activation, choose one of the following effects:Inspired Madness: one friendly faction warrior model/unit currently in this model's control range gains boosted melee attack rolls for one turn. Driven into a frenzy by the sight of bloodshed, Orsus' mad followers strike with wild abandon.Scent of Blood: one friendly faction warrior model/unit currently in this model's control area gains +2 to it's movement when it charges a living enemy model this turn. Affected models must charge during their activations this turn if they are able to do so. Overcome by their eagerness to spill blood, warriors throw themselves into the fray with terrifying enthusiasm.Bestial Movement: one friendly faction warrior model/unit currently in this model's control area gains Pathfinder and Prowl. Moving more like beasts than men, these crazed killers travel across rough ground with the ease of wild animals.
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Post by welshhoppo on Oct 24, 2018 10:15:52 GMT
Butcher has an odd history. Butcher1 covers the massacre of boarsgate to the invasion of Llael. Butcher2 covers the invasion of Llael to the siege of Fellig and being betrayed by Sorscha. Butcher3 covers his return from Ord. After being healed by a young girl (in my avatar) and getting his dogs. Ehhh. I don't think she was that young, probably closer to 14. She was small enough that the butcher could scoop her up in his off hand and she could hide under his arm.
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Post by The Snark Knight on Oct 24, 2018 10:19:18 GMT
Ehhh. I don't think she was that young, probably closer to 14. She was small enough that the butcher could scoop her up in his off hand and she could hide under his arm. So... roughly human-sized, then?
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Post by borderprince on Oct 24, 2018 12:40:22 GMT
Ehhh. I don't think she was that young, probably closer to 14. She was small enough that the butcher could scoop her up in his off hand and she could hide under his arm. Butcher's a big chap - isn't his armour meant to be parts taken off steamjacks and then modified? Lola is also originally a weapon used by a labourjack which he used without the strength assistance of warcaster armour. Picking up a teenager/young adult isn't out of the question.
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Post by michael on Oct 24, 2018 12:47:30 GMT
... But i think butcher 2 could use blood boon more than anything else As I said earlier in the thread: I have been playtesting alternate versions of Butcher2 (on and off) for about a year now. I have had B2 since the old glory days of MK I’s Unnatural Disaster blowing up an entire enemy army. I speak with just a little bit of experience. One of my first thoughts was Blood Boon too. The severe flaw with Blood Boon is that it even further incentivized B2’s “must get into melee in order to function” problem. Tying the bulk of his abilities to something that an opponent can reasonably easily deny is not fun. (Vortex of Destruction shared a similar problem. It also turned Butcher sometimes into a static “upkeep, camp, run to buff” bot and that was kind of lame.) Today is shaping up to be a quiet day. I will try, really try, to review all my playtest notes and write up something useful about B2. (For what it’s worth: Makeda3 plays a lot like how I envisioned B2, but, well, better. Maybe I shouldn’t get so hung up on that sort of thing...) Anyway...
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Post by hocestbellum on Oct 24, 2018 13:17:31 GMT
I still think any changes he receives will be minimal. Overtake for Homicidal Maniac is mostly just a neatness thing, and whilst I'd love to see him get free charges back I'm not holding my breath. It combines very efficiently with Power Up, and might make B2 *too* reliable for PP.
A very minor change that would help a lot whilst retaining the randomness that PP have stated they value; 'Once per game, Butcher may reroll this die' to Arcane Dementia. Still a chance of snakes, but much more reliable for the one turn you really need it.
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Post by michael on Oct 24, 2018 13:34:51 GMT
I think I figured it out in the shower this morning.
Truly, I am Archimedes.
Levers, bah! I’ll spend my time reasoning about you soldiers!
But, for reals: I need to test this to make sure it’s not over the top.
Snark Knight! I hope you’ll be around this weekend!
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Post by jdeckert on Oct 24, 2018 14:19:29 GMT
The thing is, I can't find much fluff saying that there is a close connection between Butcher2 and Doomreavers. So, you're right that there's not fluff saying "Butcher makes doom reavers better." But there is fluff about them working together. There's some in the Legends fiction, there's some in Fenris' model entry, and I'm pretty sure there's at least one other. It's like Stryker and storm knights, or Zaal and immortals, or Baldur and constructs. They're themed together. Apparently not quite as tightly as apparently a lot of folks don't put them together But yeah, that's only part of it for me. The bigger part is that Butcher and doom reavers are really the reason I'm a Khador player. I loved being able to use them together in Mk2, and not being able to (practically speaking) in Mk3 is a big reason I've lost enthusiasm for the game. That "problem" doesn't get fixed unless Butcher does something to make doom reavers better. I'm all for fixing doom reavers, but if they get better it still only makes sense to run them with a caster that has synergy with them. Butcher doesn't. He does have synergy with other units, so even if reavers get better it doesn't make sense to run them with him. I think you could give him an elite cadre that still makes him viable in other builds. Sorscha2 works fine with non-winterguard stuff despite having Desperate Pace: Winterguard, for example. I don't think you can let him charge friendly models. Wasn't there a problem when MKIII dropped that he could basically move across the whole board using kossites? The free power attacks option seems interesting and if that was the case I'd stick with d6+1 focus for sure... P.S. Makeda3 lost Vortex of Destruction in the CiD, maybe Butcher2 stole it..?! That's not quite what the problem was. At the beginning of Mk3, he still couldn't charge friendly models. But he could trigger the homicidal maniac movement off of them, so it didn't matter. You could line up your own dudes and he could go crazy far. They fixed that, and my suggestion above includes "enemy" in the extra movement. He could charge friendlies in Mk2, and it didn't cause any problems. The free power attack would be nice, but it's not a big enough buff to compensate for d6+1 focus. Power attacks are still a bit niche. Vortex of Destruction would be okay, but isn't really much better than just having fury on himself.
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