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Post by jdeckert on Oct 23, 2018 16:24:26 GMT
Ech, I really hope not. I'm very much opposed to the mass proliferation of no-knockdown tough. I can understand that. He needs to give them something, though, or it doesn't make sense to run him in that theme. The most glaring issue is their survivability, and I think that's the most thematic way to improve that. I mean, he could give them Blade Shield or something, just feels less fitting. Something like unyielding would be the right flavor, but mechanically useless. Death rage? Vengeance? Maybe, but they don't feel like enough to me. If we don't go the survivability route, I suppose overtake could be good on them, but probably much too good. Boundless charge like he gives Ruin?
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Post by michael on Oct 23, 2018 16:36:18 GMT
Why is it that it seems, without fail, on a day when I feel like, for the first time in months I am finally back to being a fully functional adult and have finally shed all the dumb work stress, I walk into a crisis at work that morning?
The moral being: it might take more time than I expected to re-center myself and think about Butcher2.
(I’m trying, guys...)
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Post by Phlushot on Oct 23, 2018 18:09:50 GMT
I was the guy next to you while my teammate played Thagrosh against you last weekend. My thoughts: -I actually really like the ability to charge your own models but would that be everyone? or a Field Marshall? -I like d3+3 combined with keeping the Focus 7 if you kill stuff. -I do not like Blood Boon since it adds yet another requirement to get in there and kill something personally. I want him to get in there and do stuff, I just don't want half his kit dependent on it. -I don't really want him to get a Doom Reaver related Elite Cadre or whatever, and definitely NOT Steady. The recent mass proliferation of Tough/Steady in this game is really starting to annoy me. They changed Mk2 Tough because it was too tilting and now they are bringing it back in an even better form. -Boundless Charge on a caster who has Boundless Charge already as a spell doesn't make much sense.
I could also see him getting something similar to Baldur2's Wurm tokens. He starts the game at Focus 6. Every turn he doesn't kill something he loses a FOCUS (maybe with a minimum). Killing a model (friendly or enemy) gives him +1 FOCUS and he can go up to 8. Or maybe he starts at 5, can go down to 3, and caps at 7.
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Post by jdeckert on Oct 23, 2018 18:42:58 GMT
I was the guy next to you while my teammate played Thagrosh against you last weekend. My thoughts: -I actually really like the ability to charge your own models but would that be everyone? or a Field Marshall? -I like d3+3 combined with keeping the Focus 7 if you kill stuff. -I do not like Blood Boon since it adds yet another requirement to get in there and kill something personally. I want him to get in there and do stuff, I just don't want half his kit dependent on it. -I don't really want him to get a Doom Reaver related Elite Cadre or whatever, and definitely NOT Steady. The recent mass proliferation of Tough/Steady in this game is really starting to annoy me. They changed Mk2 Tough because it was too tilting and now they are bringing it back in an even better form. -Boundless Charge on a caster who has Boundless Charge already as a spell doesn't make much sense. I could also see him getting something similar to Baldur2's Wurm tokens. He starts the game at Focus 6. Every turn he doesn't kill something he loses a FOCUS (maybe with a minimum). Killing a model (friendly or enemy) gives him +1 FOCUS and he can go up to 8. Or maybe he starts at 5, can go down to 3, and caps at 7. Ah, nice! Your teammate was really fun to play against, good guy. -I'm also keen on the charging your own models bit. I'm honestly fine if it's just Butcher himself, but could be good as a field marshal, part of ravager, etc. -Yeah, focus 7 if you kill is fine. -Agreed on blood boon. -I can understand not wanting to see tough/steady. I wish it weren't everywhere, too, and have general issues with tough. But, current state, doom reavers are really fragile and aren't viable with Butcher2. They can stay fragile, but I would really like to see them work with Butcher2 somehow. It's both thematic and nostalgic. Why are you opposed to an elite cadre generally? -I meant boundless charge on them passively with Butcher2 as an elite cadre (since he can't cast the spell on them). I honestly think it would take something that powerful to make Butcher2/doom reavers a good combination. Otherwise you just run Vlad2, Irusk2, or Strakhov2 if you want to run doom reavers and you run other units if you want to run Butcher2. The alt focus idea is interesting. I definitely think you need a minimum.
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Post by borderprince on Oct 23, 2018 19:12:02 GMT
But butcher is still more homicidal ballerina than homicidal maniac. Next mini-crate should be Butcher2/Natalie Portman Black Swan mash-up?
I'm not sold on an elite cadre for Doom Reavers. Butcher2 used to run lots of Doom Reavers in Mk2 because of a theme. The only benefit he actually provided to Doomreavers was his feat (and it was glorious). I just don't think there's any reason why he should have particular synergy with Doomreavers. If Wolves gets improved/Doomreavers get a points drop, he can still run lots of them. It's not quite the infantry blender of days of yore (thanks to losing the use of Rage tokens to move + attack), but it's still pretty good.
I could see Butcher2 + Doomreavers + Forgeseers (help with rounding out the Focus issues, and marshalled jacks + Boundless Charge casters are decent-good) as a list, without any Doomreaver specific buffs.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Oct 23, 2018 19:31:35 GMT
I'm bored at work and like to wishlist as much as the next guy. So here it goes!
Far as I've seen, Butcher's problems are:
1.- High variance in the random focus mechanic makes it very hard to plan out turns. 2.- He needs to be in Melee to Turn On a lot of his abilities. 3.- Turning On his abilities via Melee puts him in a very dangerous situation, especially if Point 1 is not favorable.
It has been established that PP won't kill their Random Focus darling, similarly, i don't think they'll give Butcher a way to Turn On his abilities out of melee. Which to me says that the design points for B_2 are:
1.- Random Focus each Turn 2.- Butcher's personal kills trigger effects that benefit the rest of the army 3.- Generate attacks without the need for focus (Berserker, Ravager)
I think that giving him D3 + 3 Focus is a good start in order to make him more predictable, he should keeps his 7 focus at 3+ kills ability though. To differentiate him enough from B_3 he should be killing stuff to enable the rest of his army, so B2 should be encouraged to get in the thick of it. I would probably cut Boundless Charge and replace it with Velocity, and give him and his battlegroup Relentless Charge (or even tie Relentless Charge to B's kills, I dunno). I would also give him a Friendly Faction ARM aura that is tied to the amount of stuff he kills (the more stuff he kills, the bigger the buff/area gets, or something).
Oh, and also give him overtake.
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Post by Phlushot on Oct 23, 2018 20:19:09 GMT
I was the guy next to you while my teammate played Thagrosh against you last weekend. My thoughts: -I actually really like the ability to charge your own models but would that be everyone? or a Field Marshall? -I like d3+3 combined with keeping the Focus 7 if you kill stuff. -I do not like Blood Boon since it adds yet another requirement to get in there and kill something personally. I want him to get in there and do stuff, I just don't want half his kit dependent on it. -I don't really want him to get a Doom Reaver related Elite Cadre or whatever, and definitely NOT Steady. The recent mass proliferation of Tough/Steady in this game is really starting to annoy me. They changed Mk2 Tough because it was too tilting and now they are bringing it back in an even better form. -Boundless Charge on a caster who has Boundless Charge already as a spell doesn't make much sense. I could also see him getting something similar to Baldur2's Wurm tokens. He starts the game at Focus 6. Every turn he doesn't kill something he loses a FOCUS (maybe with a minimum). Killing a model (friendly or enemy) gives him +1 FOCUS and he can go up to 8. Or maybe he starts at 5, can go down to 3, and caps at 7. Ah, nice! Your teammate was really fun to play against, good guy. -I'm also keen on the charging your own models bit. I'm honestly fine if it's just Butcher himself, but could be good as a field marshal, part of ravager, etc. -Yeah, focus 7 if you kill is fine. -Agreed on blood boon. -I can understand not wanting to see tough/steady. I wish it weren't everywhere, too, and have general issues with tough. But, current state, doom reavers are really fragile and aren't viable with Butcher2. They can stay fragile, but I would really like to see them work with Butcher2 somehow. It's both thematic and nostalgic. Why are you opposed to an elite cadre generally? -I meant boundless charge on them passively with Butcher2 as an elite cadre (since he can't cast the spell on them). I honestly think it would take something that powerful to make Butcher2/doom reavers a good combination. Otherwise you just run Vlad2, Irusk2, or Strakhov2 if you want to run doom reavers and you run other units if you want to run Butcher2. The alt focus idea is interesting. I definitely think you need a minimum. I don't have an issue with Elite Cadre on Butcher2 in particular but rather in general (on casters, it's great on solos). I don't like that it pigeonholes a caster into working best with only specific things in a world with themes since now I feel obligated to play him in Wolves of Winter. I would however LOVE to see a rule that allowed certain casters to bring specific model/units in their army regardless of theme. Let Vlad3 bring a unit of Uhlans, Butcher2 a unit of Doom Reavers, etc. However as it is right now I hate that Sorscha3 HAS to be in Armored Corps because of her Flank ability. I hate that Siege2 has Desparate Pace Trencher, now I feel bad taking him in Storm Division. And I know that both of those casters do well in their specific theme I just hate that they are limited like that. I look at Kolgrimma and Borka2 who both were designed to work in SotN but also do well in other themes. I could totally get behind an ability that allowed Butcher2 to bring a unit of Reavers regardless of theme and then gave them Tactician. So you can run AC or LoS and give them a screen that they can run screaming out from behind. I do think though that any changes that are Doom Reaver related aren't really worth anything until we find out what releases they have planned for the Wolves of Winter, I think it's fairly obvious at this point that there are more varities of Doom Reavers in the works (based on how incomplete the theme is and the fact that they renamed the existing Doom Reavers to Doom Reaver Swordsmen). Now that I wrote it down I actually really like my oscillating focus mechanic. Start at 5, lose one per turn, gain one per model killed, bottoms at 3, caps at 7. You have variable focus but it is predictable. You have influence on how much you have either through killing enemies or in a pinch killing your own models. Likewise your opponent has the ability to restrict available targets so that you're forced to decide whether you want to kill your own stuff. Conceptually I like the idea of providing mechanics that encourage Butcher to get up in the fight, maybe he gets something like Blood Quenched to help protect him from retaliation (and to help with his random focus that he can save to shunt damage).
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Post by michael on Oct 23, 2018 20:54:29 GMT
I tried Blood Quenched. It can seriously get out of hand — like MK I out of hand.
It is badong when Butcher is sitting at P+S 20-something and ARM 30-something.
It also shares the same problem as Blood Boon: it ties up way too much of his kit into “you absolutely must get into melee and kill things in order to work, like, at all.”
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Post by jdeckert on Oct 23, 2018 22:23:59 GMT
I'm not sold on an elite cadre for Doom Reavers. Butcher2 used to run lots of Doom Reavers in Mk2 because of a theme. The only benefit he actually provided to Doomreavers was his feat (and it was glorious). I just don't think there's any reason why he should have particular synergy with Doomreavers. If Wolves gets improved/Doomreavers get a points drop, he can still run lots of them.
He had the theme because of the fluff, though. Saying that Butcher2 doesn't need to work well with doom reavers is fine from a game design standpoint, but it doesn't make sense in the fluff. If Karchev didn't have anything that made him work well with warjacks in Mk3, that would feel a bit strange, no? Due to the fact that doom reavers can't benefit from spells, Butcher2 would need a complete re-design to work well with them in a world where any caster can run their theme. You're right that the only way Butcher2 advantaged them in Mk2 was via the theme. But now he doesn't give them an advantage at all, and other casters do. So improved/cheaper doom reavers will make them better with Butcher2, but they'll still be better with other casters and he'll still be better with other units. Letting Butcher run doom reavers in another theme is fine, but even then he'd still probably have to give them something to be worth it (like tactician got mentioned). I'm partial to his fluff with doom reavers and would like to use the models that worked well together in Mk2 in Mk3, and I don't see any way of doing that in the current structure without an elite cadre.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Oct 23, 2018 22:32:34 GMT
It also shares the same problem as Blood Boon: it ties up way too much of his kit into “you absolutely must get into melee and kill things in order to work, like, at all.” I don't thing PP is going to abandon that part of his design though. B_1 is the mid-backline caster that buffs his Army, only personally killing things if they get within 10 inches of him. B_3 is the mid-frontline Super Solo that murders the world. B_2 seems to be the a mid-frontline caster that doesn't have to kill the world, but kills just enough to allow his army to do it for him.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Oct 24, 2018 0:05:00 GMT
I’d love an ability on Butcher 2 that offers synergy with Doomeravers without making you feel like you’re obligated to take him in just that theme.
As it stands, our Wolves theme has the most synergy with casters who have a way to more reliably deliver doomreavers. Butcher 2 doesn’t offer that...at all. I totally get the tough/no knockdown thing is a pain and I don’t much like it.
What about an Elite Cadre ability that granted Doomreavers Tough on a 4-6 like the old Boomhowlers. Seem to me to be not OP, addresses the main reason you don’t want to take doomreavers with B2, but isn’t so great an ability that you might not reach for OW2 or Vlad 2 or Sorscha 1 or Irusk 2.
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Post by michael on Oct 24, 2018 3:17:53 GMT
I don't thing PP is going to abandon that part of his design though. B_1 is the mid-backline caster that buffs his Army, only personally killing things if they get within 10 inches of him. B_3 is the mid-frontline Super Solo that murders the world. B_2 seems to be the a mid-frontline caster that doesn't have to kill the world, but kills just enough to allow his army to do it for him. There’s definitely a difference in this, though. I’ve personally tried multiple iterations of “Butcher2 gets more benefits and/or has more pressure placed on him to get into melee ASAP.” It all feels bad, because suddenly everything hinges on that one single giant play. Moderately capable opponents can stop it, and it’s no fun playing a caster whose game plan is “Please let my opponent really screw up, please let my opponent really screw up....” Anyway... Sorry, stressful work day really derailed my great B2 reasoning vibe I had going on during the commute. We’ll see how it goes tomorrow.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Oct 24, 2018 4:48:35 GMT
Doesn't Conferred Rage trigger outside of melee? So the blunderbuss or Eliminator can set it off.
I personally like the idea of Blood Boon actually, lets him either cast a free Boundless Charge to further buff his army, or he can cast an Eliminator to get a pseudo-sprint.
I'm on the fence about the d3+3 focus, would have to try it out.
I don't think you can let him charge friendly models. Wasn't there a problem when MKIII dropped that he could basically move across the whole board using kossites?
The free power attacks option seems interesting and if that was the case I'd stick with d6+1 focus for sure.
He's a high risk/high reward caster. Unfortunately they haven't quite got the balance, though he is close. I'd like him to stay in that play style instead of it being diluted.
Cheers, Dave
P.S. Makeda3 lost Vortex of Destruction in the CiD, maybe Butcher2 stole it..?!
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Post by borderprince on Oct 24, 2018 5:24:41 GMT
I'm not sold on an elite cadre for Doom Reavers. Butcher2 used to run lots of Doom Reavers in Mk2 because of a theme. The only benefit he actually provided to Doomreavers was his feat (and it was glorious). I just don't think there's any reason why he should have particular synergy with Doomreavers. If Wolves gets improved/Doomreavers get a points drop, he can still run lots of them.
He had the theme because of the fluff, though. Saying that Butcher2 doesn't need to work well with doom reavers is fine from a game design standpoint, but it doesn't make sense in the fluff. If Karchev didn't have anything that made him work well with warjacks in Mk3, that would feel a bit strange, no? I'm partial to his fluff with doom reavers and would like to use the models that worked well together in Mk2 in Mk3, and I don't see any way of doing that in the current structure without an elite cadre. The thing is, I can't find much fluff saying that there is a close connection between Butcher2 and Doomreavers. The only fluff I can find is from Butcher2's Mk2 book entry: "The only soldiers who feel an affinity with him are the Doom Reavers, for they recognize in him the same force that whispers to them and urges them to slaughter." That doesn't really read to me as "Butcher2 likes Doomreavers and enhances their performance". It is really just saying they both Butcher and the Doomreavers are/have been driven mad and the Doomreavers recognise it. If I'm not misremembering (and I might be) Butcher2 was sent (to die) with Doomreavers by Irusk in an attack Irusk thought was suicidal, but again that doesn't really justify him buffing Doomreavers. It just suggests that High Kommand see Butcher2 as a dangerous weapon, but little more, the same as their view of Doomreavers.
That is not the same as Karchev's entry in the Mk2 book: "Spending the majority of his life entombed within the hull of a warjack has given Karchev a special affinity for his machines." That does explain his battlegroup centred abilities - it reflects his experience.
Happy to be corrected that I've missed something glaringly obvious. It's quite possible.
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Post by Cryptix on Oct 24, 2018 5:48:03 GMT
His desire for a doom reaver elite cadre extends from Butcher2's Mark 2 theme force "The Dogs of War", which represented the very same battle you're talking about, where the butcher's sanity broke completely and he was sent to die by Irusk, only to be brought back by uniting with his Argus hounds (Butcher3). If anything, if PP really wanted to represent the Doom Reaver connection in that theme, just make him resonate more with Wolves of Winter, like changing the upkeep benefit to a focus benefit of some sort.
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