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Post by apoc2148 on Oct 18, 2018 13:47:22 GMT
I've always like thed Dawnguard models and with the changes to Legion of Dawn I sat down and came up with a dawnguard list core that maximizes freebies. The core of the list is a max unit of destors, max invictors w/ ua and max sentinels w/ ua. This gets you to 61 total points and 3 freebies.
For reference: Max sents + UA 22 points, min +UA is 15 Max invictors + UA is 19 points, min + UA is 13 Max destors 20, min destors 12.
I'm a fan of the destors rework and with any defensive buffs they should easily make it to combat. Tack on a Scyir as a freebie and you can have a fun overlapping wave of invictors and sentinels. Sents can run up and the invictors can assault through them and provide a speed bump to protect the sents. Next turn, if anything is in range the sents can charge through the invictors to open holes for the invictors to shoot through to the back lines.
You could swap out the destors for another unit of invictors + UA and sit at 60 points as an alternative. I've played around with some double sent lists but never seemed to get the points to work out well. Haven't considered double destors yet, don't have the cash for them and not sure double destors is worth it overall.
Currently for freebies I'm taking a single Scyir and two artificers. Being able to hand out force barrier to two units a turn can really help them weather any shooting and help deliver them to melee. Destors and sentinels would be the ideal targets for the spell.
In essence this core group should be able to be ran almost caster independent. The only real issue for them is lack of pathfinder and magical weapons.
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ace
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 52
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Post by ace on Oct 18, 2018 17:20:19 GMT
The only real issue for them is lack of pathfinder and magical weapons.
Vyros2 would provide the pathfinder when necessary, add veteran leader and also provide some more defensive tech with deceleration. |
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matsif
BattleBox Champ
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Post by matsif on Oct 18, 2018 17:27:23 GMT
The only real issue for them is lack of pathfinder and magical weapons.
sentinels have relentless charge with their UA, so they're mostly going to be self-sufficient for the means of pathfinder. you can get relentless charge to the rest of the army with onslaught from Thyron (along with spellpiercer for magical and blessed weapons), ghostly to a unit with 4shade or in control range with Elara2's feat, pure pathfinder out via easy rider on Vyros2, or pathfinder in a 4" area with Ravyn's veil of mists. otherwise, just practice positioning so you don't get into a situation where you need pathfinder, or run more sentinels so your caster selection opens up a bit. --- something worth discussing though imo is the worth of actually getting 3 free models with the theme. at least in what I've seen so far in my testing, the ability for jacks to have tactician [dawnguard] from the theme is potentially much more powerful than running a scyir and getting it for your infantry/destors. by spending 60 points on infantry, you're limiting your battlegroup pretty severely, especially once you finish off adding your other support solos like arcanists, which you still want to be taking 2 of anyways for focus efficiency and giving out concentrated power on a heavy for armor cracking. imo you're better off running 40-50 points of infantry (2 full sents+UA is 44 points), getting 2 free artificers for the reason you've noted (force barrier on the sentinels), and then having some space for your ret-compulsory arcanists and a couple of heavies in your battlegroup with your chosen caster plus some room to jack marshal on the artificers. an aspis getting d3+d3 shields back each turn while shield guarding infantry that's immune to blast from its artificer is pretty strong all things considered, or you can jack marshal sirens for blessed magical melee weapons and feed them focus with arcanists for oracular vision on the run up. and don't forget that ghost snipers fit in the theme now too, you don't have to burn 7 points or a free model on eiryss1 to get deadly shot anymore to deal with pesky solos or annoying tough infantry. for future-proofing's sake you should also consider the trident, as since it should be a dawnguard model it should fit in this theme and that'll be another 16-20 points you'll probably want to throw in there. that might get you to your 3rd free solo. invictors are not-good-not-bad jack of all trades infantry that for 19 points with the UA might not be overall worth it, while destors with a free thane are a lot nicer now but still imo questionable compared to running a stronger battlegroup, sentinels, and potentially a trident down the road. |
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Post by apoc2148 on Oct 18, 2018 18:09:03 GMT
The only real issue for them is lack of pathfinder and magical weapons.
Vyros2 would provide the pathfinder when necessary, add veteran leader and also provide some more defensive tech with deceleration. Caster selection is the next thing I'm working through. There are several that will add pathfinder, as well as other buffs/debuffs that will work nicely with the list. |
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Post by apoc2148 on Oct 18, 2018 18:20:44 GMT
The only real issue for them is lack of pathfinder and magical weapons.
sentinels have relentless charge with their UA, so they're mostly going to be self-sufficient for the means of pathfinder. you can get relentless charge to the rest of the army with onslaught from Thyron (along with spellpiercer for magical and blessed weapons), ghostly to a unit with 4shade or in control range with Elara2's feat, pure pathfinder out via easy rider on Vyros2, or pathfinder in a 4" area with Ravyn's veil of mists. otherwise, just practice positioning so you don't get into a situation where you need pathfinder, or run more sentinels so your caster selection opens up a bit. All fair points. I had whittled down my caster selection to mainly including ones that could provide some sort of pathfinder, forgetting about the ua granting relentless charge. This is really the meat and gravy of this discussion. Can a list be made to work efficiently while still achieving the 3rd free solo and is that 3rd free solo even worth the points commitment from the list. This is where I feel caster selection can impact the composition of the list. Some casters may want the additonal infantry while other can get by with two units and saving the rest of the points for jacks. G4 is the first one that springs to mind aslong with Ossyan who may want more infantry than jacks. Ossyan double invictors could be nasty, not to mention the auto-hitting boosted pow 14 shots from the Destors. Whereas casters like Helynna and eVyros may be able to deal with only have 2 units+ua, 2 free solos and the rest of the points for jacks. I have thought about the Trident, but I was mainly working with released models since I don't know when the release of the Trident is scheduled, or if I will have the cash to drop to get one. I really liked the stats of the BE as it left CID, hopefully they don't change too much on it. So far in the couple lists I've thrown together the rest of the points have been Imperatus + another heavy warjack, two arcanists and a spattering of other support solos.[/quote] |
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Oct 18, 2018 19:27:25 GMT
That's a lot of words.
I rarely shoot for three free models in any list. I aim for two so I don't get blown out by somebody else's theme bonus and then just try to build the best list within the current restrictions. My lists feel, for me, more powerful with two free cards (why do we call them cards?) and constructed more intelligently, than they do at maxing out free solos and making bad decisions on what to cut to get there.
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Post by apoc2148 on Oct 19, 2018 13:01:18 GMT
There are a couple lists that I want to try with the 60-61 pt module with 3 freebies. This one in particular seems really fun:
conflictchamber.com/#c5201b_-0X46mrms9v3y3y4L4L2zmm2Hmo313uRetribution Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Legions of Dawn [Ossyan 1] Lord Arcanist Ossyan [+28] - Hypnos [17] - Imperatus [20] - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, the Seeker [0(4)] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Arcanist Mechanik [2] House Shyeel Artificer [0(5)] House Shyeel Artificer [0(5)] Dawnguard Destors (max) [20] Dawnguard Invictors (max) [15] - Dawnguard Invictor Officer & Standard [4] Dawnguard Sentinels (max) [18] - Dawnguard Sentinel Officer & Standard [4] - Soulless Escort (1) [1]
Lots of defense against ranged attacks to help deliver everything. On feat turn destors will be putting out 10 boosted pow 14 attacks (charge + boosted gun shot from feat), speed 8 imperatus just sounds like too much fun, and with the multiple def lowering shots the army shouldn't have a hard time hitting. And shatter storm on the invictors should be fun. Not to mention the focus efficiency of having future sight. It is a starting point at least to determine if I will need more jacks or not.
*This list is subject to change upon the release of the trident.*
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Oct 19, 2018 13:47:51 GMT
It's certainly not the worst list I've ever seen. Pretty sure I made all of those.  I like Ossyan. If the shots get there it's certainly going to be painful. What does your match up and pair look like for such a thing? And how do you propose to keep Ossyan from not-death? That has historically been his greatest weakness after the feat. |
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Post by apoc2148 on Oct 19, 2018 17:15:50 GMT
It's certainly not the worst list I've ever seen. Pretty sure I made all of those. I like Ossyan. If the shots get there it's certainly going to be painful. What does your match up and pair look like for such a thing? And how do you propose to keep Ossyan from not-death? That has historically been his greatest weakness after the feat. Well between quicken and an artificer he can be def 19 against shooting (def 17 vs magic) and immune to blast damage. If there isn't any shooting to worry about he can put admonition onto himself. Also with two arcanist, sylys and only two jacks to feed he could easily camp 2-3 focus. He can also reduce the speed of anything that might get into him by shooting it with his gun. And as long as I can make a hole large enough for Imperatus to side-step to the back lines through any friendly dawnguard models thanks to theme, the assassination run becomes all that much easier. I could even peg the caster with Hypnos's gun and Ossyan's gun if I really wanted to guarantee a kill.
As a pairing I might run Thyron in shadows of ret or a Helynna/eVyros forges of war list. I've yet to actually drop this list into anything so I'm not 100% sure how it will fair. But the list has armor-cracking between the destors and spd 7 sentinels. Invictors with shatter storm can help with recursion issues as well as clean up clumped up infantry. Lack of magical weapons could be an issue into some incorporeal lists.
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Oct 19, 2018 18:16:58 GMT
All of the things you say are factually accurate. I will be interested to see if your Ossyan survives. I, and everyone I have ever talked to, have had that guy die to the most random of *expletive* way to many times.  |
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Post by apoc2148 on Oct 19, 2018 19:26:21 GMT
All of the things you say are factually accurate. I will be interested to see if your Ossyan survives. I, and everyone I have ever talked to, have had that guy die to the most random of *expletive* way to many times. In my play-style I'm always trying to look for the jankiest assassination angles so I'm usually on the look out for ones my opponent could try. But it will all pan out when I get him on the table, which at the latest will be next Monday. |
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matsif
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 54
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Post by matsif on Oct 19, 2018 19:49:44 GMT
Well between quicken and an artificer he can be def 19 against shooting (def 17 vs magic) and immune to blast damage. If there isn't any shooting to worry about he can put admonition onto himself. Also with two arcanist, sylys and only two jacks to feed he could easily camp 2-3 focus. He can also reduce the speed of anything that might get into him by shooting it with his gun. never count on dice when you have the option to just prevent dice from being rolled. your defensive buffs are still counting on dice, even DEF19 isn't infallible when you're staring down a CRA with no screen. quicken's going to be on your sentinels probably until turn 3 while you get them across the table to jam, and then you'll probably want it on your invictors afterwards to catch them up as range 10 isn't doing you any favors. your artificers are going to be tied up on your invictors and sentinels because you need the immunity to blast to counter wall of steel's b2b requirement making your units still pretty susceptible to AOEs, unless your opponent has no AOEs. admonition's only a 3" move and it's not necessarily going to save you, plus you'll probably be keeping that on Hypnos to protect your arc node so you can swap around quicken and fortune and shatterstorm and the odd arcantrik bolt as required and get him out of a too close for comfort situation when he's at range 10 for his gun. Ossyan's only 15/15 with 16 boxes. in my DoI list with him I keep him firmly planted behind my AFG with Sylys and an arcanist screening his sides and I often still feel unsafe with him. as deathbymelancholy says: you need something to screen Ossyan other than Sylys and maybe your arcanists. you're going to have to play him aggressively to use his feat offensively due to your guns having only a 10" range (exception: invictors feat turn), he has no protection unless you give up on buffing your units to prevent attrition. your artificers have to play forward with the rest of the units due to the vulnerability to blast damage presented by wall of steel, and your arcanists have to play forward if you want to keep focus efficiency on your 2 jacks. I'd contemplate dumping either to a min unit of invictors and/or destors to get some other jacks to screen (marshalling an aspis for a shield guard gives medium base to hide behind and d3+d3 shield regen each turn for durability), or even dumping imperatus for 2 harpies and another arcanist. when the trident comes around you'll have a nice fat colossal base to hide behind, but until then you need something to screen Ossyan, he's too squishy to play that far forward to support your low range guns without a screen. |
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farau
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 7
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Post by farau on Oct 22, 2018 9:30:33 GMT
My Legions of dawn goto is:
Max Sentinels with UA+Soulless
2x min Destors
Trident
Comes down to 63 points and this has worked very well with different casters.
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Post by apoc2148 on Oct 23, 2018 11:08:30 GMT
My Legions of dawn goto is: Max Sentinels with UA+Soulless 2x min Destors Trident Comes down to 63 points and this has worked very well with different casters. I really wish they would just release the rules for the Trident already. The topic of how to keep Ossyan safe would be much easier in the LoD theme with a huge base in front of him. Also said huge base can pull him forward 2" to help extend his control area to get more enemy models affected by his feat. |
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Post by apoc2148 on Oct 23, 2018 11:15:21 GMT
Didn't get any games in yesterday or over the weekend due to being sick but I was able to dojo a couple more LoD lists with other casters. This one might be fun to try, and it takes more advantage of the warjacks being able to move through units benefit.
Thyron LOD
-Imperatus
-Banshee
-Manticore
Full Sents + UA x2
Artificers x2 (both free)
Arcanists x3
Artificers protect the sentinels on the way in, and once the lines collide Thyron feats and sends 2-3 side-stepping warjacks into the back lines hopefully digging a hole to the caster. Manticore can help protect the sents with covering fire as well. Extra points if you are able to get the Banshee within 5" of the caster so they can't cast spells.
Could be fun.
P.S. This thread is kinda becoming a platform for me to toss out LoD lists and get some feedback since my gaming time has been fairly limited and the closest gaming store with regulars is about 40 min away.
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