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Post by jisidro on Oct 24, 2018 8:56:05 GMT
... jisidro What do you mean that we will always miss out on part of the theme benefit by design? Or is it sone other benefit you are talking about? The Corpse benefit is quite insane... It's giving all the male tharn 1 buy/boost option. Very unique on models that don't seem worse than other comparable troops. But it's for male tharn and of those Blood Pack won't likely have use for them. Then we have the ambush benefit for Bloodweavers only... It's a much used benefit that we already have in Wild Hunt and on a specific unit. Bloodtrackers, Wolf Riders and all female solos get nothing from the theme. It narrows the theme construction in a lot of ways... - Want to do a Trackers/Wolf Rider list? No theme for you. - Want to do a list without Weavers, you get 1 benefit. - You can get from 1 Corspe token to 20+ corpse tokens... That doesn't sound right. Given the way the theme was in its last iteration... the missing out part is by design. I know maximizing benefits won't automaticaly produce the best lists but the best lists tend to use all available benefits. |
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Post by Trollock on Oct 24, 2018 10:14:30 GMT
Aha. I dont really see theme benefits like that. To me the male tharn have a corpse token. That just how they are balanced now. Bloodweavers have ambush. That is how they are balanced. Blood trackers and wolfs have neither but they are busted anyway. I do not really care if a list works because it has a certain number of theme benefits. I just care if the list works period. Male tharn work. Female tharn work. Mixing them works. I do not look any further than that.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 24, 2018 11:53:23 GMT
Aha. I dont really see theme benefits like that. To me the male tharn have a corpse token. That just how they are balanced now. Bloodweavers have ambush. That is how they are balanced. Blood trackers and wolfs have neither but they are busted anyway. I do not really care if a list works because it has a certain number of theme benefits. I just care if the list works period. Male tharn work. Female tharn work. Mixing them works. I do not look any further than that. Pretty much this right here. The corpse theme benefit makes it worthwhile to take options other than death wolves/LotF/Brigid and Caul. Lady tharn are amazing. Fragile, but hit hard and are fast. I see no reason that they need to be ignored solely because they don't milk the corpse benefit. The theme gives us: 1: Free dudes 2: Ambush on weavers which is actually petty darn good 3: Snacking Beasts for rfp 4: Corpses on Dude tharn. The ambush and Snacking beasts is pretty solid in its own right. Most of the time you are taking a White man, or Lord of the Feast who appreciate the extra corpse. You may not be maximizing the benefit, But I dont think its worth loosing out on ambush, and the raw threat of both wolf riders and Trackers, who are excellent at killing all sorts of targets. |
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Post by redcathal on Oct 24, 2018 12:17:13 GMT
damn I've been forgetting about snacking this whole time! for some reason I thought the ambush replaced that
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maffo
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 4
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Post by maffo on Oct 24, 2018 14:21:03 GMT
Sorry, but snacking got replaced with ambush.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 24, 2018 18:55:42 GMT
Sorry, but snacking got replaced with ambush. Even without it, its still worth it to run Lady tharn based on their own unique abilities. |
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Post by jisidro on Oct 24, 2018 23:12:29 GMT
Aha. I dont really see theme benefits like that. To me the male tharn have a corpse token. That just how they are balanced now. Bloodweavers have ambush. That is how they are balanced. Blood trackers and wolfs have neither but they are busted anyway. I do not really care if a list works because it has a certain number of theme benefits. I just care if the list works period. Male tharn work. Female tharn work. Mixing them works. I do not look any further than that.
Are you also saying that Ret solos in Defenders need repo 3" to be balanced? To make it more specific is Eyriss1 unbalanced in the other ret themes because she doesn't get repo 3" outside that theme?
How about Cygnar solos in Heavy Metal? Do they need repo 3" to be balanced?
I think the themes that will be more successfull will be the ones that offer the most to the lists that work. A list of Bloodtrackers and Wolf Riders operates in a theme with no benefits... That's not to say it will produce only bad lists but if going up against models of the same "power-lvl" it'll be a theme benefit behind.
An example... Primal terrors started with Vengeance on the Warmongers and ended with Vengeance in both units. Would it be bad without vengenace in both? I don't think so. Is it better with Vengeance on both units? It goes from irrelevant to better, it is never worse. Defenders got the Advanced move benefit expanded from Halberdiers to include melee units, it would include missile units as well but they'd be shooting the opposing non-AD elements top of 1. Is it much stronger? I don't know but you can see lists with Halberdiers and other house guard and you can see lists with Rysovass and it's a matter of choice because both get the same from the theme.
I thnk Death Wolves need Corpse tokens to begin the game because of the bar created by other character units. I don't think the LotF needs to begin with Corpse tokens with SPD 6, reach 2" and Blood reaper... It's just better with them. etc.. etc... I think the corpse tokens put them up along with other units that get good theme benefits direclty or army wise, ambush feels gimmicky to me and it's on the only unit if could be in and the rest get zip. Beasts get zip. It's a pity IMO.
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Post by elshinare on Oct 25, 2018 0:43:10 GMT
Honestly, my list does decent with no Male tharn. I have LotF and a nightwitch as solos as well as Hutchuck. It did make people question what to drop into my pairing at a recent tournament. And this is pre CID. I think that themes don't have to give a benefit to all models, hell, don't most themes not? Baldur1 gets no benefit from the theme, other than taking Ghetorix and Loki now, which may end up being bonkers
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Post by Trollock on Oct 25, 2018 6:14:24 GMT
jisidroWhat i am saying is that if they changed the heart eater rule to give a corpse by default and entirely removed that theme benefit it would not change the power of the theme, since it would work exactly the same as it does now. The important thing about the ret and cygnar themes you mention is not if the solos get repo or what ever. The imortant thing is that lists built in the theme are not too strong and not to weak. Might be too soon to comment on the power level of post cid ret, but heavy metal has been around a long tine and is definitely not too strong. Possibly too weak. I have never sat down and played a game against an opponents theme benefits. I play a game against an opponents list, and theme benefits are a part of that. I do not care if an ability is printed on the models card or added by a theme. As long as the list i play and play against are balanced im happy, and i see no indication that tharn are too weak. More like the opposite actually.
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Post by jisidro on Oct 25, 2018 10:09:56 GMT
I don't think they are too weak. Or that Ret or Cygnar are too strong. I don't mean that. I can't look only at the big picture. I think that dismissing The PoM monk or Free Eyriss because the factions as a whole are fine is not a good idea... Suddenly stuff blows up...
Your example of the Heart Eater rule would immediately change the Death Wolves for the better and the LotF in CotW... It's only the same within the context of a particular game.
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Post by Trollock on Oct 25, 2018 10:37:23 GMT
Im not looking at a FACTION as a whole, but at a LIST as a whole. In that context it does not matter if a list is good because of a theme benefit or because of good models. You play LIST vs LIST, not FACTION vs FACTION or THEME vs THEME.
You are totally correct though that lists built in CotW or WH would become better with my little heart eater example, but that is just my point. You check if the list built ib a theme is good, not if the theme bonusen in and of themselves are good.
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Post by jisidro on Oct 25, 2018 11:05:10 GMT
Im not looking at a FACTION as a whole, but at a LIST as a whole. In that context it does not matter if a list is good because of a theme benefit or because of good models. You play LIST vs LIST, not FACTION vs FACTION or THEME vs THEME. My bad I should have written the Ret theme and Cygnar Theme. You are totally correct though that lists built in CotW or WH would become better with my little heart eater example, but that is just my point. You check if the list built ib a theme is good, not if the theme bonusen in and of themselves are good. My point is that it is not irrelevant where the rules are written and, for me, that means that themes across factions should make sense. I wouldn't want a theme giving Kossite Woodsman < Insert buff good enough to put them on the table > to make them good in the lists they can be taken in but I'd like to see them used just because they have a place and role in the themes that can take them. I feel a lot gets lost in LIST vs LIST evaluation (Except within the context of a specific game). It becomes hard/impossible to create hybrid themes when units/solos are propped up by theme bonuses... Think no further than Posses in minions. Will they be played without the +3 box theme benefit? |
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Post by Trollock on Oct 25, 2018 11:27:34 GMT
Im not really sure what we are arguing over anymore lol.
Go Tharn!
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Post by elshinare on Oct 26, 2018 0:18:05 GMT
Im not really sure what we are arguing over anymore lol. Go Tharn! THARN 4 LIFE! I just can't decide if I want to run Baldur1 with Deathwolves, B&G, Ravagers, Trackers, and Bloodweavers...on paper it SHOULD be good...but I haven't played Ravagers, Deathwolves, or B&G |
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