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Post by copperflame on Oct 26, 2018 21:59:49 GMT
((the following is not balanced, it is only meant to give examples of what my opinion on what changes could be applied to themes))
Oracle of Annihilation - Magic Theme
- non-character warbeasts, Proteus
- units/solos with magic or magic abilities
- thrones
+ X amount of Thrones/Hellmouths, gain a free Bloodseer or maybe Ice Witches?
+ Units gain boosted magic damage rolls
+ Throne of Everblight gain apparition
Ravens of War
- warbeasts w/ flight (including Golab), maybe Typhon (or any warbeast with speed 6 or better)
- units/solos with high speed/advanced deployment/ambush/etc.
- units/solos with stealth/pathfinder
- no throne or hellmouth
+ X amount of units, gain free Forsaken
+ Striders gain Snipe, Blightblades gain Precise Attack (or the 1 damage melee ability)
+ Forsaken/Shepards gain Stealth
Children of the Dragon
- same (though I think Z needs some love and Az needs a little tweaking)
- units/solos same
- no throne
+ free solos/UA based on units
+ 'They learn' - Neph Soliders get WM if within cmd of swordmen / Neph Bloodseers get Arcane Vortex if within cmd of Hex Hunters / Neph Protector grants Steady
+ Character warbeasts may sheed 1 point of fury at the end of their activation
Primal Terrors
good as is as far as I can tell
*NEW* Rage of the Dragon (a dedicated beast theme)
- any non-character warbeast,
- limited units
- all solo support
+ free solos based on warbeasts
+ lessers gain X
+ heavies gain X
((you get the idea))
So yea... all that is just my opinion and open thoughts
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Next CID?
Oct 27, 2018 1:44:23 GMT
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Post by piedpiperwtf on Oct 27, 2018 1:44:23 GMT
Bethayne should get her old feat back, only thing I wish for in any CID.
Oracle's would be so good at that point.
Hexies
Witches
SnH
BFS
Throne
All gaining boosted attack and damage again
Hexies with ashen viel
Add in BB for 5" continuos corrosion serving of pie and anti-tough
Probably just a pipe dream though.
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Post by snotling on Oct 27, 2018 7:26:50 GMT
I doubt bethanye will get her old feat back. Just flip her feat to give warbeasts flank on warriors, a couple more warbeast points and she would be fine.
Then give me vayl3 riding on a throne with bethaynes old feat. XD
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danx
Junior Strategist
Posts: 120 
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Next CID?
Oct 27, 2018 10:48:34 GMT
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Post by danx on Oct 27, 2018 10:48:34 GMT
Oracle's is good how it is. I think it's a great theme with a balance between free stuff having ok choices, benefits and mix of beasts.
I think the errata to 30 points per free model was very bad. I think adding spawning vessel and ice witches to the free list would be sensible would give lots of strong options.
Children, needs most new models. I think Nephliam heavy, a character shepherd, and some infantry support solos - desperate pace and legionnaires fixed and it would be a great theme. I think the benefits are fine as they are largely.
Ravens, needs most reworking. I would add Flying warbeasts gain gang fighter with warriors. I think that gives it the power it needs. The infantry threat ranges are still poor. 10.5" plus slipstream. Most factions can do 10 or 11, plus vengeance or desperate pace. Then boundless charge. And slipstreaming Grots and striders isn't the best use of fury usually.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Oct 27, 2018 19:18:45 GMT
Agreed, but what would be good changes to the themes? The obvious one would be counting Nyss points for Children, but what else? I guess Oracles could lose apparition for something to better help beasts, but unlocking beasts in Ravens would be powerful but detract from the flavor of theme. I think the apparition rule is absolutely fantastic, but with only one full unit in the theme... Granted, it gives access to the best application of kiss we can get, but the advantage of this special rule is just so limited in terms of it's application. And the same sort of bs is true for the other themes. Ravens is a cool theme, too bad playing fast outflanky armies without a lot of punch or sturdyness to them just hasn't been a part of this game (this edition). Childeren is filled with precision strike, which we pay for, yet doesn't offer any way to make it stick past abby+proteus or anamag, and even then abby1 has to do it without forsaken to add ashen veil into the mix. The absence of the forsaken by itself is madness in a beast meant to sport light beasts. Terrors seems to fare better but like others have said most warlocks seem to want the same list. That's a problem too. It's not that I think we cant make lists that improve your chances at winning, because that's not true. But with every theme we got dealt I couldn't help but wonder what the hell they were thinking throwing such a disfunctional mess together. Allthough, it's perfectly obvious what the designstrategy for all themes was... "Let's put all of this together". It boggles my mind how a group of people that brought the game relying so heavily on all kinds of cool synergies devolved into such a simple train of thought. How to fix it? The thread about nyss and nephs buffing eachother was a great one, that's the kind of things I want from themes to offset the restrictions on list building in themes. |
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Post by chillychinaman on Oct 27, 2018 20:15:07 GMT
dirtyharrypotterWhen I asked that question I was mostly thinking about Ravens. Since I owned Hex Hunters & the BFS for Mk2 Bethayne, I too appreciate Apparition in Oracles, but I feel it'd be better for the themes to be more focused and provide synergistic buffs. I liked the idea of Nyss granting Gang/Flank to Nephilim to beef out Children but what can do the same while still playing to the strengths of Ravens? Maybe Give all beasts Run & Gun and/or Sprint to play up the skirmishy feel and to facilitate better trades? Or perhaps a damage buffing version of Mark Target on one of the Strider models/units? P.S. I know I repeat this a lot, but I still think the Scythean and Soldier switching animus would better play to the strengths of each model.
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Post by Deadneck on Oct 27, 2018 21:04:56 GMT
I'd like to see 3 changes to Children:
1. Replace Unyielding with Gang Fighter or Flank (Friendly Faction warrior)
2. Beast Mistress solos can take Nephilim warbeasts in their battlegroups
3. Free solos for Nyss models/units
Personally I'm actually very much against a non-character nephilim heavy and I'd rather see them make it work with only lights and infantry as I think that's more interesting than saying "screw it, make a nephilim heavy." I do think that they need to lower the points cost on some of the nephilim or give them more to make them worth the points.
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Post by chillychinaman on Oct 28, 2018 12:55:13 GMT
I definitely agree with the need to lower costs on some of the Nephilim, it's annoying that some of them cost as much or more than heavies in other factions, barring Arc Node lights which are expected to be a bit overcosted.
I love your idea for Mistresses. It will really open up the list options especially with Fury management if PP continues to forbid Forsaken. The catch is their vulnerability and short range. Would gaining long leash as well be asking for too much? What if it replaced Aggressive as the field marshal?
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Post by Deadneck on Oct 28, 2018 22:48:29 GMT
If they were to update the text on Guard Dog to work with the Beast Mistress and the theme bonus changed to flank I think you could get away with keeping her as is and running two Protectors with her. They can shield guard ranged attacks against her and she'd be def 16 in melee. If she needs anything else I think Sac Pawn [warbeast in this model's battlegroup] would be a good buff without being too much.
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Post by onijet01 on Oct 29, 2018 4:56:27 GMT
I would rather just see a change to the Blight Wasps from Warbeast Pack to Lesser Warbeast Pack. Then the beast mistress could have a roll as an anti-infantry fighter.
The unique abilities of warbeast packs can place the beasts attacking targets at a maximum range of 16.5 inches from the mistress once you take into account leader position, and cmd.
That wiuld keep her back amd safe and allow for some fun shinanigans. Add in sense they are a unit i could thagrosh 1's dravonic blessing and just have fun with two blight wasp+mistress combos
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Next CID?
Oct 29, 2018 14:53:47 GMT
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Post by gordo on Oct 29, 2018 14:53:47 GMT
For me, if I really needed to summarize what I want is this:
I need a compelling reasons to play my existing Legion models over some other faction. Right now, other than Primal Terrors, I do not have compelling reasons to play our other themes.
OoA: There are so many better war-noun based themes out there... It's kinda sad.
CotD: the only compelling reason I can find is our 2 character Nephilim, because no other theme has mirrors for them. Still not good enough. Pass.
Ravens: It's clearly missing some key components compared to other "skirmish-ambush" themes.
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Post by custardboy on Nov 1, 2018 4:47:38 GMT
Ravens of War:
For every 15 points of Legion warrior units and solos, get one non character small based solo free.
Legion warbeasts gain Mark Target.
Enemy models lose Ambush.
-Add Golab
I think we can agree Bees adding to free stuff is odd. I've gone specific here with the free models which allows the point bracket to be lower. I also hate warrior themes where solos don't add to the free model bracket as it discourages them. Ravens is a restrictive theme so going with a stronger benefit seems good.
Mark Target seems like a good thematic and playstyle benefit. While I love ambushing Grotesques, I don't like that they invalidate Blightblades. Some of my local players were surprised when I told them Legion actually does have an ambush unit. The ambush theme benefit is silly in the only theme where our actual ambush unit is allowed.
Children of the Dragon:
For every 30 points of units and warbeasts in the army, add one small based solo or command attachment free.
Non-warlock Nyss and Nephilim models in this army gain Unyielding.
+1 starting roll.
I like the themes idea of being mixed arms and allowing various ways to build. So why not have the theme benefits set up that way? Yeah the Nyss gaining unyielding isn't going to do much but it may save the odd solo or legionnaire. Other people have said Gang Fighter which seems pretty cool but would actually require playtesting.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Nov 7, 2018 7:35:42 GMT
Drop.
The.
Firetrucking.
Battlegroup.
Restrictions!!
Really folks, this is Legion we’re talking about. The quintessential beast faction, and yet we’re sporting heavier battlegroup restrictions than any other faction in the game. It’s not cute, it’s not fun, can we please stop making excuses for this piece of idiocy that plays directly at odds with Legion’s core faction identity?
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Nov 7, 2018 8:29:12 GMT
∆ I can drink to that 🍻
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Post by Falcen on Nov 7, 2018 11:18:12 GMT
I don't object to warbeast restrictions per se, but Raven's and CoD's are heavy and the benefits are way off from being an adequate compensation. Lifting the restrictions would be the easiest solution though.
Unlock focus management models for all themes - taking those away is like lowering the FOC stat for Warmachine.
Every character warbeast should be eligible in at least 1 theme, no matter the warlock (relevant to all factions though).
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