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Post by illrede on Oct 18, 2018 12:58:12 GMT
Bwuh? He's zero points in any list that takes him. Everyone complained he costed too much for what he did so they made him cheaper when really all we wanted was for him to have more actual effect on the Battle. I suspect they are largely trolling us. There is speculation though that they will allow Ancestral Guardians into other themes though, particularly for Zaal1, so this would have more merit in those cases. But now there's a mass cry that Awakened Spirit doesn't do anything for Zaal1. Cynically, I see people that have no understanding how important it is that Zaal1 camp heavily into the mid-game looking for something generic and powerful to replace a lynchpin utility spell. I am beginning to doubt the CID process. The problem is they actually listen to people, and people don't know what they're talking about. Zaal and Constructs is the one thing in this game I consider myself an expert at, and it's been a real perspective shift on the CID process. (For Haakar, I've come to expect that when people have the resources to take out one of my heavy warbeasts or my Hakaar, they go after my Haakar. Which they ought to, he has the most 'caster kills out of any of models, easily.)
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Oct 18, 2018 13:24:04 GMT
are you saying awakened spirit is key to zaal1 plan in exalted? Can you explain why camping is such a big deal for him? In the games I have played in exalted his battle group all has guns and sits in the back sniping stuff. I also don't think awaken spirit is useless but it is a weak spell and given he is in CID and has had NO changes (I assume the SG getting souls form him is not a change but I could be remembering wrong) it is odd.
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Post by illrede on Oct 18, 2018 13:55:59 GMT
are you saying awakened spirit is key to zaal1 plan in exalted? Can you explain why camping is such a big deal for him? In the games I have played in exalted his battle group all has guns and sits in the back sniping stuff. I also don't think awaken spirit is useless but it is a weak spell and given he is in CID and has had NO changes (I assume the SG getting souls form him is not a change but I could be remembering wrong) it is odd. When playing Zaal1 in the Exalted with a list that does not include Beast Handlers*, there is a brief window (a single turn) where Awakened Spirit is predictably vital. The most popular way to lose with Zaal1 is to get the Old Man killed. There will be a turn at the end of the initial "run up" round where camping two fury puts you at risk of losing through assassination (empirically determined, constantly revisited). So this means unless you are willing to possibly fail a threshold check (which you may well be, depending on what you brought for a battlegroup), there must be four fury on your warbeasts that turn. With a purely ranged battlegroup, this just means some self-discipline (or not) with your boosts. But with a support battlegroup**, this means you need Awakened Spirit (or confidence that you don't need full access to what your battlegroup is doing for you in the support sector the following turn). *Before the Supreme Guardian came out, this was a compromise in list building- you lost access to a good and sustained source of high PS attacks without recourse to Last Stand, but you maximized your access to your fundamentals, making it an acceptable trade. You got a weakness that you knew you would have to accommodate. But now it is no kind of compromise- Zaal1 is strong in that category even without Beast Handlers. **And now a Support Battlegroup is greatly rewarded. The best non-Zaal survival benefit I could get from a Support Battlegroup until recently was controlling the rate at which I lost Ancestral Guardians (and Haakar) and adding a few inches to Immortal threat in the mid-game through models out in front that didn't die earlier. Now, it's pure Supreme Guardian survival- and every turn a Supreme Guardian is on the table it warps the game around it. And it's probably going to need full defenses always. Also I'd like to say that while Zaal1's card has not changed at all, Zaal1 has been in ways that I haven't yet comprehended. With the expanded support budget and support options, and the recent addition of the Supreme Guardian, he has no initial weaknesses after list building. Your opponent is going to have to bring them (through including models that ignore or neutralize something), or make them during play.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Oct 18, 2018 14:05:42 GMT
When playing Zaal1 in the Exalted with a list that does not include Beast Handlers*, there is a brief window (a single turn) where Awakened Spirit is predictably vital. The most popular way to lose with Zaal1 is to get the Old Man killed. There will be a turn at the end of the initial "run up" round where camping two fury puts you at risk of losing through assassination (empirically determined, constantly revisited). I really don't want a spell specifically designed for that situation.
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Post by illrede on Oct 18, 2018 14:10:59 GMT
When playing Zaal1 in the Exalted with a list that does not include Beast Handlers*, there is a brief window (a single turn) where Awakened Spirit is predictably vital. The most popular way to lose with Zaal1 is to get the Old Man killed. There will be a turn at the end of the initial "run up" round where camping two fury puts you at risk of losing through assassination (empirically determined, constantly revisited). I really don't want a spell specifically designed for that situation. It looks a lot different when it becomes a predictable reason that you lose a game or not.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Oct 18, 2018 14:13:33 GMT
I really don't want a spell specifically designed for that situation. It looks a lot different when it becomes a predictable reason that you lose a game or not. I just have a really different experience with zaal1. Now I play with the SG and with PGBH. I also do not find leaving my caster back an issue. I really would have to watch some of your games to understand your point. I really wish I could imagine the game you are explaining better.
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Post by illrede on Oct 18, 2018 14:25:34 GMT
It looks a lot different when it becomes a predictable reason that you lose a game or not. I just have a really different experience with zaal1. Now I play with the SG and with PGBH. I also do not find leaving my caster back an issue. I really would have to watch some of your games to understand your point. I really wish I could imagine the game you are explaining better. I've got two Zaal1/SG games between the SG and Exalted CIDs, but neither of those were failure-state. They should give an idea how things are set up, though.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Oct 18, 2018 14:27:09 GMT
I just have a really different experience with zaal1. Now I play with the SG and with PGBH. I also do not find leaving my caster back an issue. I really would have to watch some of your games to understand your point. I really wish I could imagine the game you are explaining better. I've got two Zaal1/SG games between the SG and Exalted CIDs, but neither of those were failure-state. They should give an idea how things are set up, though. Thanks!
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Oct 18, 2018 15:21:31 GMT
Wow you play zaal1 MUCH further up the table than I have ever even tried to do. I do not know if I want to paint another SG but your game is very impressive.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Oct 18, 2018 17:54:03 GMT
Everyone complained he costed too much for what he did so they made him cheaper when really all we wanted was for him to have more actual effect on the Battle. I suspect they are largely trolling us. There is speculation though that they will allow Ancestral Guardians into other themes though, particularly for Zaal1, so this would have more merit in those cases. But now there's a mass cry that Awakened Spirit doesn't do anything for Zaal1. Cynically, I see people that have no understanding how important it is that Zaal1 camp heavily into the mid-game looking for something generic and powerful to replace a lynchpin utility spell. I am beginning to doubt the CID process. The problem is they actually listen to people, and people don't know what they're talking about. Zaal and Constructs is the one thing in this game I consider myself an expert at, and it's been a real perspective shift on the CID process. (For Haakar, I've come to expect that when people have the resources to take out one of my heavy warbeasts or my Hakaar, they go after my Haakar. Which they ought to, he has the most 'caster kills out of any of models, easily.) We've already argued about this so I don't need to do it again in a different forum. But to answer your question of "I don't understand why the developers listen to players who don't know what they are doing", it's because if the plurality of players don't get how to make a certain core chunk of their rules work, then they won't sell very many models that use that chunk, so they want to change that chunk. I've often heard the argument of "list X is just as good as list Y, it's just more difficult to get good with" as an excuse to not change those rules. And sure, that excuse works for the 2-3 people that have figured those rules out... But those 2-3 people aren't buying enough of those models, and the others who did and who can't figure them out? They are having an NPE and not buying any more models, nevermind the other folks who look at that chunk and go "Nope, that's not going to work. Let me go play some Cryx instead", leaving the other models on the shelves and adding to meta stagnation. This reasoning may be wrong for the top 1% who "get it", but it isn't necessarily wrong for their player base at large nor for PP to sell models.
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Post by illrede on Oct 18, 2018 18:44:28 GMT
But now there's a mass cry that Awakened Spirit doesn't do anything for Zaal1. Cynically, I see people that have no understanding how important it is that Zaal1 camp heavily into the mid-game looking for something generic and powerful to replace a lynchpin utility spell. I am beginning to doubt the CID process. The problem is they actually listen to people, and people don't know what they're talking about. Zaal and Constructs is the one thing in this game I consider myself an expert at, and it's been a real perspective shift on the CID process. (For Haakar, I've come to expect that when people have the resources to take out one of my heavy warbeasts or my Hakaar, they go after my Haakar. Which they ought to, he has the most 'caster kills out of any of models, easily.) We've already argued about this so I don't need to do it again in a different forum. But to answer your question of "I don't understand why the developers listen to players who don't know what they are doing", it's because if the plurality of players don't get how to make a certain core chunk of their rules work, then they won't sell very many models that use that chunk, so they want to change that chunk. I've often heard the argument of "list X is just as good as list Y, it's just more difficult to get good with" as an excuse to not change those rules. And sure, that excuse works for the 2-3 people that have figured those rules out... But those 2-3 people aren't buying enough of those models, and the others who did and who can't figure them out? They are having an NPE and not buying any more models, nevermind the other folks who look at that chunk and go "Nope, that's not going to work. Let me go play some Cryx instead", leaving the other models on the shelves and adding to meta stagnation. This reasoning may be wrong for the top 1% who "get it", but it isn't necessarily wrong for their player base at large nor for PP to sell models. I think that's being too charitable. Instant consensus and agitation on an obscure aspect of a model that is only nominally in CID is suspicious as hell.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Oct 18, 2018 21:00:30 GMT
We've already argued about this so I don't need to do it again in a different forum. But to answer your question of "I don't understand why the developers listen to players who don't know what they are doing", it's because if the plurality of players don't get how to make a certain core chunk of their rules work, then they won't sell very many models that use that chunk, so they want to change that chunk. I've often heard the argument of "list X is just as good as list Y, it's just more difficult to get good with" as an excuse to not change those rules. And sure, that excuse works for the 2-3 people that have figured those rules out... But those 2-3 people aren't buying enough of those models, and the others who did and who can't figure them out? They are having an NPE and not buying any more models, nevermind the other folks who look at that chunk and go "Nope, that's not going to work. Let me go play some Cryx instead", leaving the other models on the shelves and adding to meta stagnation. This reasoning may be wrong for the top 1% who "get it", but it isn't necessarily wrong for their player base at large nor for PP to sell models. I think that's being too charitable. Instant consensus and agitation on an obscure aspect of a model that is only nominally in CID is suspicious as hell. I can't speak to any conspiracy theories, but I can speak to having played Zaal1 roughly half a dozen times. I found that the games I cast that spell it was a total waste of time. I may not be "good enough" or have the right list to notice it's value or haven't played enough games to notice its value. And maybe everyone who agreed with the consensus that Awaken Spirit needs work is also similarly misinformed. Or maybe we are all in cahoots with each other and out to break CiD. Maybe we would not say that Zaal1 is "only nominally in CiD" given that Zaal, being the Supreme Aptimus, is basically the poster child for The Exalted. Maybe an upkeep spell on a warlock is hardly what others would consider an obscure aspect. Dunno man. Funny thing is, I would often agree with you. I have definitely lost some faith in the CiD process and have definitely seen some silly stuff going through it due to sketchy reports. But I would not agree the consensus that Awakened Spirit is rarely worth casting is an example of that. Especially since I hear Kromac2 players complain about it all the time too.
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Post by illrede on Oct 19, 2018 0:34:53 GMT
I think that's being too charitable. Instant consensus and agitation on an obscure aspect of a model that is only nominally in CID is suspicious as hell. I can't speak to any conspiracy theories, but I can speak to having played Zaal1 roughly half a dozen times. I found that the games I cast that spell it was a total waste of time. I may not be "good enough" or have the right list to notice it's value or haven't played enough games to notice its value. And maybe everyone who agreed with the consensus that Awaken Spirit needs work is also similarly misinformed. Or maybe we are all in cahoots with each other and out to break CiD. Maybe we would not say that Zaal1 is "only nominally in CiD" given that Zaal, being the Supreme Aptimus, is basically the poster child for The Exalted. Maybe an upkeep spell on a warlock is hardly what others would consider an obscure aspect. Dunno man. Funny thing is, I would often agree with you. I have definitely lost some faith in the CiD process and have definitely seen some silly stuff going through it due to sketchy reports. But I would not agree the consensus that Awakened Spirit is rarely worth casting is an example of that. Especially since I hear Kromac2 players complain about it all the time too. Don't strawman me on that. I can't disprove that what I am seeing here is a rapid consensus in the online meta that there was open design space to be lobbied for in Zaal1's Awakened Spirit after some brief attention. My predictions would be that people would be playing Zaal without Beast Handlers a lot now and that playing Zaal1 without Beast Handlers they would begin to value the spell. EDIT: Which is to say not a conspiracy- groupthink. Greedy, lazy groupthink.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Oct 19, 2018 2:14:40 GMT
I can't speak to any conspiracy theories, but I can speak to having played Zaal1 roughly half a dozen times. I found that the games I cast that spell it was a total waste of time. I may not be "good enough" or have the right list to notice it's value or haven't played enough games to notice its value. And maybe everyone who agreed with the consensus that Awaken Spirit needs work is also similarly misinformed. Or maybe we are all in cahoots with each other and out to break CiD. Maybe we would not say that Zaal1 is "only nominally in CiD" given that Zaal, being the Supreme Aptimus, is basically the poster child for The Exalted. Maybe an upkeep spell on a warlock is hardly what others would consider an obscure aspect. Dunno man. Funny thing is, I would often agree with you. I have definitely lost some faith in the CiD process and have definitely seen some silly stuff going through it due to sketchy reports. But I would not agree the consensus that Awakened Spirit is rarely worth casting is an example of that. Especially since I hear Kromac2 players complain about it all the time too. Don't strawman me on that. I can't disprove that what I am seeing here is a rapid consensus in the online meta that there was open design space to be lobbied for in Zaal1's Awakened Spirit after some brief attention. My predictions would be that people would be playing Zaal without Beast Handlers a lot now and that playing Zaal1 without Beast Handlers they would begin to value the spell. EDIT: Which is to say not a conspiracy- groupthink. Greedy, lazy groupthink. I meant what I said in that you may in fact be seeing something real that we're not. But I still think the reason why PP listens to the less knowledgeable/skilled contributors is because they still make up the majority of their player base. As for groupthink, I can only speak for myself: I hated Awakened Spirit long before this CiD had begun, and only because of my own experiences with him. However, I don't think you are doing them or yourself any favors by assuming the worst of their intentions. They may simply just not be able to see what you do, or have different ideas about how they would like Zaal1 to play. I don't think that makes them lazy or greedy.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 19, 2018 13:26:28 GMT
illrede, in your opinion, what would it do to Zaal1 if Awakened Spirit became a cost 3 range control (or command) spell that reduced the cost of animi by 1 to a minimum of 0?
I imagine it would make him a much more obvious choice to take no Beast Handlers and let him manage a greater number of support beasts easily. I don't have a problem with Awakaned as is, but it is a bit underwhelming on him. If I need to drop it, it gets dispelled or it's carrier dies, there's rarely a reason to recast it.
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