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Post by mcdermott on Oct 10, 2018 23:44:15 GMT
Seems like because list pairs exist in tournaments that improving the "lower win rate" list can cause the faction pair to win more while not dislodging the "TOP" list. Am I misunderstanding your point here somehow? Whats the high win rate skorne list dominating the meta?
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 10, 2018 23:59:09 GMT
As busted as MKII Snipe with Ancillary Attack? More so, spray 10, poison, gunfighter shots under a caster like Xerxis 2 are what worries me Uh, Hexy2Sexy with 1 under Winds gets me hard. Charge a black spotted guy, spray kill , move 2", melee kill a BS guy, spray, etc. etc. Whole unit gone.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 11, 2018 0:00:00 GMT
Seems like because list pairs exist in tournaments that improving the "lower win rate" list can cause the faction pair to win more while not dislodging the "TOP" list. Am I misunderstanding your point here somehow? Whats the high win rate skorne list dominating the meta? Shhhhhh..... Don't share the secret Xekaar tech!
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Oct 11, 2018 1:13:29 GMT
I hear you, but Eliminator play was a large part of the fun. Back in the infantry days of MKII, when there were less cloud walls, she could hit with a boosted 6 magic ability, recoup it, and keep rolling. I especially loved here absolutely bonkers bullshit attack runs, and adding Grievous Wounds and Overtake was just the right prescription.
On that note, 'Ol Bronzeback is definitely going back into her list. Native Beat Back, coupled with Overtake is going to be a ton of fun.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Oct 11, 2018 2:20:43 GMT
Seems like because list pairs exist in tournaments that improving the "lower win rate" list can cause the faction pair to win more while not dislodging the "TOP" list. Am I misunderstanding your point here somehow? Whats the high win rate skorne list dominating the meta? So getting any list in Skorne that would dominate the meta or get a high win rate is power creep? I am really lost here. Can you explain the power creep point again please?
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Post by mcdermott on Oct 11, 2018 2:57:32 GMT
The point is, that they can put a bunch of powerful stuff in exalted..because it was a weaksauce list that isn't in any real danger of EXCEEDING what other lists are currently posting for winrate. By adding these powerful things they MIGHT be able to produce a list that clocks a solid winrate, but its not going to dethrone the top lists for % of wins.
Weak themes can get powerful models without changing the overall power "cap" of where the game is at.
In generic terms, if the game as a whole has a "best list" that sustains a win rate of like 65%, until a list shows up posting a sustained win rate higher than that power creep hasn't REALLY occurred. Its just shuffled the rankings around because in a competitive game like warmachine, "power" is always going to be determined by winning potential.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Oct 11, 2018 6:04:13 GMT
Ok, So lets take the "TOP" list. Thats the line. As long as that line doesn't move (via lists that gain greater win % than whatever the "TOP" list currently receives) power isn't creeping, its just sloshing around somewhere between the best and worst lists. EX: Lets say that the best lists right now manage like a 65% win rate, theoretically. Even if ANOTHER list comes along and starts garnering a 65% win rate, power likely hasn't crept, as to gain that win rate it would have to knock that "best" list down a peg since "best" lists get played more commonly than mediocre ones. Unless it starts claiming a HIGHER percentage the power level hasn't really moved. In fact that sloshing around and increasing bad lists to be more competitive is imperative to the health of the game as a whole. Exalted is going to win a few games early as people learn to adapt to them, but the reality is, they're still going to be a mediocre LoS, which isn't tearing up the meta. Reach high hitting high armor high pow single wound melee, with a BE rather than Cavalry. LegoS but slower and more support dependent. I dunno, even if the win percentage hasn't moved, if more lists are 'creeping' towards that top percentage, I would say that's power creep. It's not just specific lists either, there is always something each CID that is super powerful, that sets a new benchmark of expectation of what is acceptable, the Judicator for instance is too good imho, and that might be ok if everyone's collossals got addressed, so a new universal benchmark is set, but as they are doing it by faction, some are now really good, others are horribly overpriced, which feels like the old GW codex creep
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Post by mcdermott on Oct 11, 2018 6:32:23 GMT
And you'd be wrong. If the top line doesn't move, and weak lists move toward its power level, you're approaching some facsimile of balance, not a creeping level of increased power.
Or i mean you could just admit that you want a bunch of bad themes/lists and balance to be achieved by making good things worse. That usually pisses off a playerbase severely though.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Oct 11, 2018 6:58:27 GMT
And you'd be wrong. If the top line doesn't move, and weak lists move toward its power level, you're approaching some facsimile of balance, not a creeping level of increased power. Or i mean you could just admit that you want a bunch of bad themes/lists and balance to be achieved by making good things worse. That usually pisses off a playerbase severely though. What I don't want is a massive disparity between a handful of top lists and everything else. And to achieve that I would rather bring things back in line rather than incrementally buff everything else using CID over the course of several years. But in reality I just want mk3 to have been fit for purpose from the start, and not have CID at all, or for PP to actually design their own game, rather than getting all of us plebs involved
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Post by jagius021 on Oct 11, 2018 14:03:31 GMT
And you'd be wrong. If the top line doesn't move, and weak lists move toward its power level, you're approaching some facsimile of balance, not a creeping level of increased power. Or i mean you could just admit that you want a bunch of bad themes/lists and balance to be achieved by making good things worse. That usually pisses off a playerbase severely though. What I don't want is a massive disparity between a handful of top lists and everything else. And to achieve that I would rather bring things back in line rather than incrementally buff everything else using CID over the course of several years. But in reality I just want mk3 to have been fit for purpose from the start, and not have CID at all, or for PP to actually design their own game, rather than getting all of us plebs involved It's a dynamic game that has to have things like CID. Magic is by and far the most successful of all hobby and card games and it utilizes various techniques to adjust the game. Ban lists, set rotations, format creation and deletion. It's necessary for a healthy game. CID is probably the best thing to happen to this game since mk2. Thememachine though, I am still torn on. On one hand cool, all of my models can see play. On the other, not how I necessarily want them to. Do benefits outweigh the cost? I don't know but I'll keep playing until I get overly frustrated.
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Post by elladan52 on Oct 11, 2018 14:32:12 GMT
And you'd be wrong. If the top line doesn't move, and weak lists move toward its power level, you're approaching some facsimile of balance, not a creeping level of increased power. Or i mean you could just admit that you want a bunch of bad themes/lists and balance to be achieved by making good things worse. That usually pisses off a playerbase severely though. What I don't want is a massive disparity between a handful of top lists and everything else. And to achieve that I would rather bring things back in line rather than incrementally buff everything else using CID over the course of several years. But in reality I just want mk3 to have been fit for purpose from the start, and not have CID at all, or for PP to actually design their own game, rather than getting all of us plebs involved wait, nevermind
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Post by coolguyclay on Oct 11, 2018 15:38:12 GMT
All these CIDs should keep shifting the meta. What was once stale in a faction, by choice (did not mesh with castor as X) or by rule (not worth the points), stands a chance of becoming useful again. Will the change open up a new "net list" that dominates with chants of power creep - a faction defining change? Or will it, more simply, be a playable choice in people's collections, with a new "gotcha" that comes up some games? Or will it basically do nothing, the rules were not quite right? (We've all heard the rumor of how X2 with a bazillion Reptile Hounds was somehow broken during MK3 testing . . . and it all worked out into a great X2 and a never-played Reptile Hound : )
I'd guess it's hard to know early how changes will affect things - thus play testing and CID help. I'm a casual player with a large collection and find certain models never hit the table. I'd look for CID to bring existing models to light - can't say how that will affect perceived power levels of lists or factions at the tournament scene.
I'm happy Sentinal, Cannoneer, Bronzeback and Mammoth are in CID (though I don't own a mammoth). and wish it would expand just slightly more to some lesser used things. Not to power game or whatever, but certain things just don't hit the table that often! (Reptile Hounds, Nihilators, Arcuarii, Incindiarii . . . everyone probably has their list...and every faction probably does too . . . )
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Post by Cryptix on Oct 11, 2018 16:57:36 GMT
Cataphracts will have their own CID in masters of war.
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Post by Charistoph on Oct 11, 2018 17:19:24 GMT
Cataphracts will have their own CID in masters of war. No guarantee of that. Unlike Exalted and Winds of Death, which have a focus on one type of unit, Masters of War has both Cataphracts and Praetorians, and neither of those unit lists are as small as Immortals.
Hopefully Cataphracts are addressed in the next Skorne CID, but I wouldn't place any bets on it encompassing Praetorians to call it a Masters of War CID. It is just too expansive to address all together without missing something.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Oct 11, 2018 17:29:21 GMT
The thing about Masters of War that bothers me the most is the lack of Exalted models, actually. PP keeps saying fluff is a valid impact on game design. Fine then.
Skorne warriors are fearless and disciplined in battle precisely because they seek to earn Exaltation, and the presence of an Ancestral Guardian and Immortal Companions is a huge boost to their morale. IKRPG, Skorne Empire Unleashed, speaks specifically to this. The presence of a single Extoller (and now addition of the BE) option in theme isn't sufficiently fluffy. The greatest houses of the east and the Army of the Western Reaches both have Exalted models marching regularly beside Praetorians and Cataphracts, inspiring them even further.
From a game design perspective, I'd like to at least have Hakaar and AGs available in MoW. Zaal1 was always good with living infantry backed by AGs. Zaal2 likely is as well. Xerxis1 I'm sure would also have a place for one or two under certain conditions, and other warlocks as well.
If fluff is relevant, then keep it relevant consistently, or at least better than it is now.
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