|
Post by gobber on Oct 2, 2018 4:58:07 GMT
Christmas CiD was one of the best ways to touch up a lot of legacy models across factions, but it looks like we may not even get one this year. I would be happy if they broke it off into two different CiDs. They're breaking it into multiple chunks of ~3 factions at a time; everyone still gets their release.
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Oct 2, 2018 7:14:37 GMT
The way CIDs are working out atm is just outright codex creep! Primal Terrors (especially Anamag) is outright unacceptable, and Exemplar Interdiction (especially High Reclaimer) is definitely borderline. How Anamag made it out like she is just beggars belief frankly Is it? Or is it just an extension of the hellmouth "issue"? IF those weren't in the theme, or at least not free, is Anamag as terrifying? And honestly, I loathe a JVM Kalas build more. I found the Northkin CID to be really well done even if it is dated by todays standards. It has powerful models with relevant synergies that works with a plethora of Warlocks that lose most of that when taken out of the theme. Yes, Bear Handlers are powerful models, but they're balanced in a fairly restrictive infantry scheme and are ONLY allowed there. It has a lot of the same "gold standard" I'm hopeful for the Steelhead CID since that's all I kept of my Mercenary army, but honestly, what I kept is an Irregulars/Kingmaker theme, and works just fine in that regard. I'm completely unconvinced that Steelheads need a theme. Yeah Unyielding Hellmouths are flipping stupid! I think my issue with Primal Terrors and especially Anamag is that there is pretty much nothing they cannot solve for trivially. Caster independent: Damage buffs: Blightbringer, Prey plus just general higher powered weapons Accuracy buffs: Prey, paralyzing gaze, vet leader, sitting vulture, powerful charge, cavalry charges Armour buffs: Blightbringer, and native tough (With Rise) plus things like rapid healing and unyielding Magic weapons: 10" aura of no incorp from Ammok Enemy upkeep on your stuff removal: Disbinding on Ammok Pathfinder: native on Chosen, No Quarter on warmongers Threat extensions: hellmouths, vengeance RFP: Golab has a passive aura that affects living and undead scenario denial: Hellmouths So they have all of that before you add a caster, and then Anamag adds: Damage buff: spell and feat, plus grevious wounds Accuracy buff: Carnage Armour buff: spell that also gives feign death Threat extension: Gallows Upkeep removal: hex blast Plus she is Fury 7 and most likely gets to cast a free spell put of activation. It's just outright power creep, and PP don't seem to give a s**t! It's so infuriating
|
|
unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
|
Post by unded on Oct 2, 2018 7:22:45 GMT
What I think the OP is missing in this comparison is that Khador was in a much better place than say Circle or Legion pre-CiD. The AC CiD could just focus on making a viable theme, and get it's new stuff up to parity with the rest of Khador.
If you look at PT for example, bringing a new theme up to par with the rest of Legion would just mean more unplayed shelf-warmers. Same for Tharn. Any faction in a bad state will have the same effect - if the faction has very little that is competitive, then a good CiD is going to feel like power creep from the outside.
|
|
whydak
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
|
Post by whydak on Oct 2, 2018 7:26:48 GMT
Is it? Or is it just an extension of the hellmouth "issue"? IF those weren't in the theme, or at least not free, is Anamag as terrifying? And honestly, I loathe a JVM Kalas build more. I found the Northkin CID to be really well done even if it is dated by todays standards. It has powerful models with relevant synergies that works with a plethora of Warlocks that lose most of that when taken out of the theme. Yes, Bear Handlers are powerful models, but they're balanced in a fairly restrictive infantry scheme and are ONLY allowed there. It has a lot of the same "gold standard" I'm hopeful for the Steelhead CID since that's all I kept of my Mercenary army, but honestly, what I kept is an Irregulars/Kingmaker theme, and works just fine in that regard. I'm completely unconvinced that Steelheads need a theme. Yeah Unyielding Hellmouths are flipping stupid! I think my issue with Primal Terrors and especially Anamag is that there is pretty much nothing they cannot solve for trivially. Caster independent: (...) Pathfinder: native on Chosen, No Quarter on warmongers - Only one unit.It's just outright power creep, and PP don't seem to give a s**t! It's so infuriating It also suffers a lot into heavy shooting. It's stronger that everything that Legion has before but it has less tricks and have obviouss weak matchups. And Pre CID legion is not good benchmark. It's strong but is it above the top meta list? I doubt it. Only question is which power level is desired target one.
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Oct 2, 2018 7:40:25 GMT
whydak what gun line would you play into it? Arm 21 Chosen with 8 boxes, Tough and Rapid Healing seem pretty resilient to guns
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Oct 2, 2018 7:41:53 GMT
What I think the OP is missing in this comparison is that Khador was in a much better place than say Circle or Legion pre-CiD. The AC CiD could just focus on making a viable theme, and get it's new stuff up to parity with the rest of Khador. If you look at PT for example, bringing a new theme up to par with the rest of Legion would just mean more unplayed shelf-warmers. Same for Tharn. Any faction in a bad state will have the same effect - if the faction has very little that is competitive, then a good CiD is going to feel like power creep from the outside. Just because the rest of Legion still subpar does not mean Primal Terrors is not overtuned
|
|
|
Post by oncomingstorm on Oct 2, 2018 7:48:46 GMT
Anamag is very strong, and may or may not be above the acceptable power curve (we can't really say, because there's not really been any meta-defining lists in Legion from before PT), but it definitely has counters. It's very strong into low-middle model count lists that rely on any kind of stat to stay alive, but it's very shootable, isn't terribly resilient (Chosen possibly excepted, though they're kind of like CID Ghetorix in that there are many potential counters to at least some of their defensive tech), and really doesn't like hard control or being out-threatened. She also struggles into some of the very hard armor skews out there, funnily enough, since most Anamag lists don't take a Naga for...some reason.
PT is played with a number of other casters, too. Kallus1, obviously, but I've seen it run to great effect with Kallus2, Thagrosh1, and Fyanna2 as well. Anamag is the obvious choice (not least because she's braindead easy to play most of the time).
As for other CIDs I've been involved in:
Retribution made at least 3 of the factions 4 themes viable, and created expanded options in each and every theme it touched. It was an amazingly comprehensive CID, and I'll be very interested to see how the Ret meta shakes up. I see viable lists with at least 5-6 casters in every theme but Forges.
Circle has yet to drop, but while Iona is obviously powerful, Morvahna1 and 2 are likely to be the real meta-shakers of that CID. The theme itself, provided the models don't change substantially, is likely to be viable with both Kruegers, Baldur1, both Morvhanas, Wurmwood, Grayle, Kormac2, Una2, Mohsar, and Tanith. Furthermore, COTW might actually have a place in the meta after the changes drop.
Obviously all 3 of these CIDs were more obvious buff fests than Armored Korps. Most of the models in Armored Korps were fine going into CID, and Khador as a faction was in a much state in terms of internal and external balance before CID. If PT had failed to bring substantial buffs to the faction, it would have failed. If the Tharn CID doesn't bring significant buffs to Tharn/Living Beasts, Circle players will just keep playing Bones of Orboros. The threshold for improvement is higher in those themes, because the models were significantly worse going into CID.
|
|
whydak
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
|
Post by whydak on Oct 2, 2018 9:08:47 GMT
whydak what gun line would you play into it? Arm 21 Chosen with 8 boxes, Tough and Rapid Healing seem pretty resilient to guns So far I've been gunned to death by: - PoM gunlines with idrians+double CRA rocket guys/Judicators - Gravediggers with express teams - AC Butcher1 bomardiers is rough, Siege chariot also laughs at chosen. - Krueger 2 Bones
Recently I also played into CID Morvhanna 1 and with Arced/Geomancied mortalilty they dropped quite easily to reeves.
Skorne, Sloan and some other builds sounds rough on paper but I had no occasion to test it. Please remeber that only one unit is so resilient. Warmongers/Warspears drop much easier. Second chosen unit also has lower armor as they can't have upkeep buff.
|
|
|
Post by slaughtersun on Oct 2, 2018 9:39:16 GMT
Mortality and some sort of decent shooting removes chosen off the table trivially.
And it completelly obliterates warspears/warmongers.
Any of the bazilion cloudwall lists around laughs in PT faces.
The double siege crawler merc lists enjoy few things more than an armour "paper" colossal.
Yes Anamag and PT is powerfull but lets all calm down.
|
|
|
Post by deathbymelancholy on Oct 2, 2018 11:24:48 GMT
*clip* but lets all calm down. I'm not on the PT is the Apocalypse train, but I can tell you from being married for 18 years; this phrase NEVER has the desired effect.
|
|
|
Post by slaughtersun on Oct 2, 2018 11:53:23 GMT
*clip* but lets all calm down. I'm not on the PT is the Apocalypse train, but I can tell you from being married for 18 years; this phrase NEVER has the desired effect. Wiser words were never spoken ^^ If people complain about Chosen I am so curious to see if they still complain about pathfinder, armour 21, rapid healing gethorix... or cheap p+s19 stalkers...
|
|
|
Post by streetpizza on Oct 2, 2018 12:54:22 GMT
17 pts for a P+S 19 beater is cheap now?
|
|
gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
|
Post by gordo on Oct 2, 2018 13:33:18 GMT
17 pts for a P+S 19 beater is cheap now? ... Yes? Obviously so. Compare it to Legion heavies, or Skorne heavies, or Gatormen heavies, or how about every heavy war-beast out there??? Now, there possibly is an argument that all those other heavies are over-costed. But compared to nearly every other heavy war beast, Warp-wolves at week 3 are insane (possible exception of Skin & Moans)
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on Oct 2, 2018 13:40:29 GMT
17 pts for a P+S 19 beater is cheap now? ... Yes? Obviously so. Compare it to Legion heavies, or Skorne heavies, or Gatormen heavies, or how about every heavy war-beast out there??? Now, there possibly is an argument that all those other heavies are over-costed. But compared to nearly every other heavy war beast, Warp-wolves at week 3 are insane (possible exception of Skin & Moans) What? The week 3 Stalker is STR 11 with a POW 6 weapon, making it P+S 17, saying it's 19 is taking Primal for granted and then completely ignoring Rage on Wrastlers?
|
|
|
Post by streetpizza on Oct 2, 2018 13:57:21 GMT
... Yes? Obviously so. Compare it to Legion heavies, or Skorne heavies, or Gatormen heavies, or how about every heavy war-beast out there??? Now, there possibly is an argument that all those other heavies are over-costed. But compared to nearly every other heavy war beast, Warp-wolves at week 3 are insane (possible exception of Skin & Moans) What? The week 3 Stalker is STR 11 with a POW 6 weapon, making it P+S 17, saying it's 19 is taking Primal for granted and then completely ignoring Rage on Wrastlers? With warp str it is P+S 19 without outside factors like primal. Lets not unnecessarily muddy waters. All of the other heavies he lists though have other advantages. - Legion heavies come with guns and high number of initials thus taking any buff very well. At 16 points the ravagore has an awesome gun and 3 melee initials, at 18 pts the carni has an assault spray and 3x initial with one of them at P+S 18, at 16 pts the sythean has 2x P+S 17 initials and a P+S 15. We're deffinitely in the same ball park here as the stalker at 17pts. - For skorne there is the bronze back with three initials and two of them are P+S 17 and he's got the armor + boxes +1 fury advantages to back him up. Seems pretty comparable to a stalker at 17pts. The Aradus soldier P+S 18 with 2x additional 15s and 16pts. Again we seem to be in the same ball park here - Wrastler comes with rage built in which is one of the best animi in the game. Its the same reason that the feral is 16pts in CID and not down around 14, ditto on the Mauler at 15 when he'd otherwise only be a 12/13 pt beast. War hog basically sits at fury 3 and 2xP+S 18 with a P+S 17. Seems fair at 15pts when compared to CID satyrs at 3 fury. Please do elaborate why you think the stalker should be an outlier at 19pts gordo? Remember it trades an initial attack and armor for the def and spd advantage and if you want to bring up the other warps then lets please consider the fact that it is P+S 17 and 15 then.
|
|