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Post by jisidro on Sept 28, 2018 13:58:33 GMT
I've been trying to build Tharn centric lists and I've been having some difficulties due to the last change in the theme. I want to use B&C (Which I think will stay as they were) and/or Death Wolves (Who I don't believe will see any changes. PP feels they should be an out-of-theme theme unit...) and I feel LotF is now good enough but they all demand a Croc Pot. This means 5 points on theme and beasts and no acess to the gobber bellows... Do you feel Death Wolves are good enough to spend the free 15pts? If not taking DW but just taking B&C and LotF is the crop pot mandatory? I have been thinking about Morv2 and she poses a lot of questions... if you want as many troopers as you can she also makes the characters very good turning the DW into straight stealth andf giving them rerolls for those murder chains they are hellbent on trying, same goes for LotF and B&C also want to be as explosive as possible... And ofc Wolf Riders + Solo also turn into stealth troops with Morvahnna or "just" go up to DEF 17 against shooting. This is my current version: | Circle Army - 70 / 75 points [Theme] The Devourer's Host !!! Your army contains CID entries.
(Morvahna 2) Morvahna the Dawnshadow [+27]
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[/b] [*]Warpwolf Stalker [17][/ul]Lord of the Feast [0(6)]Tharn Ravager White Mane [0(5)]Tharn Wolf Rider Champion [0(7)]Bríghid & Caul [7]Tharn Bloodtrackers ( max) [15][/b] [/ul]Tharn Ravagers (max) [15][/b] [/ul]Tharn Wolf Riders (max) [18][/td][/tr][/tbody][/table][/td][/tr][/tbody][/table] 5 free points for something... Perhaps Lanyssa + Upgrading Feral for a second Stalker losing Primal? Or just the Blood Shaman? Krueger1 is also a guy I'd like to see working. Perhaps the Blood Shaman can help. It's a ranged DEF Skew filled with great targets for Lightning Tendrils | Circle Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Devourer's Host !!! Your army contains CID entries. (Krueger 1) Krueger the Stormwrath [+28]
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[/b] [*]Scarsfell Griffon [8][*]Shadowhorn Satyr [12][*]Tharn Blood Shaman [0(5)][/ul]Swamp Gobber Chef [1]Tharn Ravager Shaman [0(5)]Tharn Ravager White Mane [5]Tharn Wolf Rider Champion [0(7)]Bríghid & Caul [7]Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew [2]Tharn Blood Pack ( max) [15]Tharn Bloodtrackers (max) [15][/b] [/ul]Tharn Wolf Riders (max) [18][/td][/tr][/tbody][/table][/td][/tr][/tbody][/table] What you guys waiting to try out?
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Post by paradox on Sept 28, 2018 14:50:38 GMT
IMO Death Wolves do NOT require the croc pot in any way. Sure, its nice, but Ive had plenty of success, post-theme change with them without the pot. Theyre just fine.
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Post by jisidro on Sept 28, 2018 15:59:05 GMT
IMO Death Wolves do NOT require the croc pot in any way. Sure, its nice, but Ive had plenty of success, post-theme change with them without the pot. Theyre just fine. I played them a lot of mk2 when they started with a corpse and it was... underwhelming. Now they are 3pts each with roughly the stats of a ravager... A ravager is 2pts with the CA and provide a solo for they full cost (20pts). You are saying Prowl and Cannibal magic and less threat is worth 1 pt for each of them?
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Post by Trollock on Sept 28, 2018 16:11:00 GMT
The Well cann also feed them corpses and it is a pretty nice piece in general...
Death wolves seem pretty bad compared to other tharn stuff though, so ill focus on that (post incoming later
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Post by LoS Jaden on Sept 28, 2018 16:19:35 GMT
I think Krueger 1 just makes Tharn sort of "win more" against infantry doesn't he? I guess +3 def against guns is good, but into most infantry guns you just need to get one ravager there and that's gg.
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Post by paradox on Sept 28, 2018 16:25:45 GMT
IMO Death Wolves do NOT require the croc pot in any way. Sure, its nice, but Ive had plenty of success, post-theme change with them without the pot. Theyre just fine. I played them a lot of mk2 when they started with a corpse and it was... underwhelming. Now they are 3pts each with roughly the stats of a ravager... A ravager is 2pts with the CA and provide a solo for they full cost (20pts). You are saying Prowl and Cannibal magic and less threat is worth 1 pt for each of them? In a word, yes. They work just fine with a single heart. The addition of AD really just rocketed them beyond any hit from the theme. But mainly I love the change because it makes them no longer auto-include. If they fill the need, great. If not, youre no longer stupid for not taking them in every Dev Host list ever, and slamming all the hearts in them. Now, a unit of ravagers are a strong consideration. They lack Cannibal Magic, but have more bodies and on mini-feat can do the same work. But that CA is still a weak link to think about. And they dont AD. But Prowl and CM make the DW really hard to stop, and AD majes delivery a breeze. Its easy to get value from Death Wolves, any any troops at all are easy refills. This is how it should be. Compelling choices, not stupid auto-includes.
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Post by Trollock on Sept 28, 2018 20:13:11 GMT
I played Trolls during the Northkin CID and afterwards it felt like i had an entirely new faction to play with. Almost every single troll caster can run SotN and do it well, and they also have many different flavors of the theme. It is incredibly well done imo.
This CID has the potential to be as good for the faction and give a boost of creativity to the community. Just as with Trolls, at least on the surface it feels like most circle casters can play Tharn at it can be interesting at least, and good in many cases. Even some casters that are not really meant to play infantry can probably make good use of the theme.
As suggested on the Pillars of Salt cast, Baldur 2 might be viable in DH. Not for what he does for tharn, but he REALLY likes Loki and Ghetorix. You can build a list with Loki, Ghetorix and a Feral/Stalker as your BG and build a really solid brick with a Wall and high DEF high ARM beasts that simply wont die. To complement this brick you can include some Blood Pack for lane clearing, some Ravagers for general fightyness and some bloodweavers who ambush in to contest far of zones until your brick can chew through the opposing force. Season with solos to taste.
Una 2 is another not super obvious option i think. Hand of fate on Blood Pack or Blood Trackers makes then SUPER scary, and Mirage on Ravagers is great synergy too. You can play 40ish points of tharn who are well supported by the caster and still have plenty of griffons for the flanking crazyness we all know by now.
Im even glancing at Kaya 3, though that is probably a bridge too far. Grayle is probably way better in DH than in Wild Hunt just because of how bad those models are. Moshar with Blood Pack and an Argus to reduce DEF could be super dangerous for assassination. Krueger 2 is a superb caster, and even if you do not have the same level of bullshit that geomancied TK is, you still have a spell slave who can do it, and he does protect your tharn from shooting on the way in, as well as extending threat ranges, and who wouldnt love a Wolf Rider Champion to be able to trivially charge something in the back since you turned it around? 5 dice damage is good i hear... And these are not the obvious choices. The obvious ones like Baldur 1 and Iona might be super bonkers.
Then we should not forget the CotW! Cheaper living heavies with pathfinder makes that theme way more interesting than before. What ever list you were playing in CotW before probably gets another 6-8 points post CiD. That could be used to add a light, or something like Hutchuck or upgrade a light to a heavy. Such changes could unlock the theme for real. Just look at the winter Argus spam list @los_Jaden played. It has a Feralgeist that can be exchanged for Hutchuck post CiD. Effective POW 19 lights anyone?
This is a great time to play Circle!
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Post by oncomingstorm on Sept 28, 2018 22:44:11 GMT
Trollock - I don't see Baldur2 outside of Bones in the foreseeable future. You lose so, SO much flexibility when you drop from being able to take 3 geomancers, to being able to take only 1 (expensive) geomancer. Add in the limited range of Baldur's effective presence (seriously, it can be hard to get roots on enough things, even in Bones), and how damn expensive each of the three beasts (Loki, Ghetorix, Megalith) are (especially since they don't contribute to free points in theme) and...I just don't see it happening. Baldur2 doesn't actually have a terribly strong personal toolkit. What he does have is a backbreaking tool kit, when force-multiplied via geomancy, IF your opponent doesn't have a strong answer to it. Roots of the Earth is an okay, but not amazing buff. Rock Wall is amazing, but it doesn't make a caster on it's own. And his feat is mediocre in many instances (My Baldur2 list puts roots on 4+ models a turn, every turn - feat turn is just a turn where I can spend my fury doing other things, with that list). Maybe someone else will break it wide open, but personally, I just don't see it happening.
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Post by bloodhawk on Sept 29, 2018 2:05:08 GMT
Trollock - I don't see Baldur2 outside of Bones in the foreseeable future. You lose so, SO much flexibility when you drop from being able to take 3 geomancers, to being able to take only 1 (expensive) geomancer. Add in the limited range of Baldur's effective presence (seriously, it can be hard to get roots on enough things, even in Bones), and how damn expensive each of the three beasts (Loki, Ghetorix, Megalith) are (especially since they don't contribute to free points in theme) and...I just don't see it happening. Baldur2 doesn't actually have a terribly strong personal toolkit. What he does have is a backbreaking tool kit, when force-multiplied via geomancy, IF your opponent doesn't have a strong answer to it. Roots of the Earth is an okay, but not amazing buff. Rock Wall is amazing, but it doesn't make a caster on it's own. And his feat is mediocre in many instances (My Baldur2 list puts roots on 4+ models a turn, every turn - feat turn is just a turn where I can spend my fury doing other things, with that list). Maybe someone else will break it wide open, but personally, I just don't see it happening. I won an early Mk3 tournament using roughly the following: Baldur2, Gheto, Megalith, Feral, Wrongeye, Min bloodtrackers, blackclads, and shifting stones. The Warpwolves are insane when behind a wall, with roots up, and with starcrossed up. I remember in my game I played vs a Kromac2 beast brick and tanked basically his entire list under kromac2 feat (I believe I lost 1 beast total).
I am going to give something like this a shot in dev host.
Baldur2, Gheto, Loki, Wrongeye / snapjaw, Gorax, Max Ravagers + UA, Max Bloodtrackers + Nuala, and add solos / potentially bloodweavers.
It is pretty damn elite, but Ghetorix and Loki under roots, behind a wall, with starcrossed present a serious problem. Between the solos, ravagers, and bloodtrackers you can toast most infantry so the 2 big boys just play clean up. I am certainly not saying it's going to be really powerful, but it definitely has potential.
On the topic of the CID results, I personally am really hyped to try Kromac2 in several different COTW lists, and even plan to try a (buff Mac2) dev host list. Also really interested to try tannith and Krueger 2 in COTW to see how they play with the new points. I know I will enjoy devourers host with a bunch of casters, but I am really curious to see where COTW lands. I am coming around to the idea of it being solid more and more.
My biggest question mark coming out of the CID is the Storm Raptor I think. I really hope it ends up being a solid options, because it won't take much for it to be tabled for good again (IMO taking away flying high or repo3 would be real bad news). Also, I really hope the Dev host theme benefit and LOTF stay the same as CID week 3 rules.
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Post by Trollock on Sept 29, 2018 7:46:52 GMT
Trollock - I don't see Baldur2 outside of Bones in the foreseeable future. You lose so, SO much flexibility when you drop from being able to take 3 geomancers, to being able to take only 1 (expensive) geomancer. Add in the limited range of Baldur's effective presence (seriously, it can be hard to get roots on enough things, even in Bones), and how damn expensive each of the three beasts (Loki, Ghetorix, Megalith) are (especially since they don't contribute to free points in theme) and...I just don't see it happening. Baldur2 doesn't actually have a terribly strong personal toolkit. What he does have is a backbreaking tool kit, when force-multiplied via geomancy, IF your opponent doesn't have a strong answer to it. Roots of the Earth is an okay, but not amazing buff. Rock Wall is amazing, but it doesn't make a caster on it's own. And his feat is mediocre in many instances (My Baldur2 list puts roots on 4+ models a turn, every turn - feat turn is just a turn where I can spend my fury doing other things, with that list). Maybe someone else will break it wide open, but personally, I just don't see it happening. I have never played baldur 2, so it is all just theory of course, but we are looking at it in diferent ways it seems. You play a list that revolvs around making construct models high ARM and possibly have them geomancy cravasse to kill infantry, yes? My (or rather the guys/gals at pillars of salt) idea is that you combine making your pieces high ARM and high DEF. They are also immune to many pieces due to the wall placement. Extremely few pieces in the game can hope to go in against Ghetorix/Loki behind the wall with Roots up and make an impression. It takes me vack to mk2 with madrak 1 who did much the same thing. Move up, take the alpha, dont care, murder what ever went in and brick up again. The tharn elements of the list are mainly there to keep you aluce on scenario until you are done killing things with your battle group. There are most likely lots of tweaki g to be done, but i thonk the core is very solid. It us not the same as a bones list. It is not strictly better or worse, but it is diferent.
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Post by jisidro on Sept 29, 2018 9:29:27 GMT
I think Krueger 1 just makes Tharn sort of "win more" against infantry doesn't he? I guess +3 def against guns is good, but into most infantry guns you just need to get one ravager there and that's gg. I'm trying to go for anti-clou, anti-shooting. You should be able to kill a hard target. Why do you assume it's for infantry only?
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Post by frumiousbandersnatch on Sept 29, 2018 21:35:04 GMT
I think Baldur2 seems like a fun idea. With native arm 19 and the small box increase I kind of think Riphorns might have a place here. I'm not necessarily sold on Loki just hanging out in the brick for the sake of it, though. I always found him to be rather pillowfisted and with a heavy battle group and low model count many opponents I think will have a trivial time preventing your drag. Riphorns are almost as tough and a fair bit cheaper. They also hit harder and take buffs better (primal and Diving Inspiration are likely to be your only ones here) than Loki and it hurts a little bit less to throw one away when you primal it. Since you aren't too worried about outspeeding your opponent with your brick you don't necessarily need the extra threat provided by Loki. Primal + Divine Inspiration should let you trade into most things.
I think the big question to ask is whether or not to bring Megalith and heavy/light on Tharn do you go? Ghetorix + Megalith + Riphorn + Riphorn + Gorax leaves 31 points for Tharn (one free card). Dropping Megalith leaves 51 points (two free cards).
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Post by oncomingstorm on Sept 30, 2018 0:58:56 GMT
I think Baldur2 seems like a fun idea. With native arm 19 and the small box increase I kind of think Riphorns might have a place here. I'm not necessarily sold on Loki just hanging out in the brick for the sake of it, though. I always found him to be rather pillowfisted and with a heavy battle group and low model count many opponents I think will have a trivial time preventing your drag. Riphorns are almost as tough and a fair bit cheaper. They also hit harder and take buffs better (primal and Diving Inspiration are likely to be your only ones here) than Loki and it hurts a little bit less to throw one away when you primal it. Since you aren't too worried about outspeeding your opponent with your brick you don't necessarily need the extra threat provided by Loki. Primal + Divine Inspiration should let you trade into most things. I think the big question to ask is whether or not to bring Megalith and heavy/light on Tharn do you go? Ghetorix + Megalith + Riphorn + Riphorn + Gorax leaves 31 points for Tharn (one free card). Dropping Megalith leaves 51 points (two free cards). You always bring Megalith with Baldur2. ALWAYS. He is not a negotiable piece of kit. Not only is the only geomancer available in theme (and thus, the only way you're realistically going to get more than 2 Roots of the Earth out in a given turn), he heals Baldur to offset his wurm tokens. While you CAN purge those off (and sometimes you have to, even with Megs), you really, really don't want to, because they let Baldur hit like a heavy in the endgame. I can...kind of...see the argument for Ghetorix, Riphorns, etc with Baldur2 (I think it's unlikely to catch on, though), but dropping Megalith isn't a viable option.
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Post by elshinare on Sept 30, 2018 1:43:07 GMT
I am curious how Loki at pow 16x3 is pillow fisted but a Riphorn at pow 15x1 16x2 isn't. Yeah we got problems against armskew in most lists but there are answers to it.
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Post by Trollock on Sept 30, 2018 9:21:16 GMT
I think Baldur2 seems like a fun idea. With native arm 19 and the small box increase I kind of think Riphorns might have a place here. I'm not necessarily sold on Loki just hanging out in the brick for the sake of it, though. I always found him to be rather pillowfisted and with a heavy battle group and low model count many opponents I think will have a trivial time preventing your drag. Riphorns are almost as tough and a fair bit cheaper. They also hit harder and take buffs better (primal and Diving Inspiration are likely to be your only ones here) than Loki and it hurts a little bit less to throw one away when you primal it. Since you aren't too worried about outspeeding your opponent with your brick you don't necessarily need the extra threat provided by Loki. Primal + Divine Inspiration should let you trade into most things. I think the big question to ask is whether or not to bring Megalith and heavy/light on Tharn do you go? Ghetorix + Megalith + Riphorn + Riphorn + Gorax leaves 31 points for Tharn (one free card). Dropping Megalith leaves 51 points (two free cards). You always bring Megalith with Baldur2. ALWAYS. He is not a negotiable piece of kit. Not only is the only geomancer available in theme (and thus, the only way you're realistically going to get more than 2 Roots of the Earth out in a given turn), he heals Baldur to offset his wurm tokens. While you CAN purge those off (and sometimes you have to, even with Megs), you really, really don't want to, because they let Baldur hit like a heavy in the endgame. I can...kind of...see the argument for Ghetorix, Riphorns, etc with Baldur2 (I think it's unlikely to catch on, though), but dropping Megalith isn't a viable option. What is it that you think makes him so nessecary? Sure, he is good but im not sure i see why he is an auto include. If your plan is to have lots of targets that need Roots, sure, he can provide that, but if you only plan on having roots on a couple of models, Baldur can take care of that himself. Is it the Geomancy crevasse that is the thing you value so highly?
As i still havent played Baldur 2 im genuinely curious, im not just looking to start an argument an argument
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