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Post by droopingpuppy on Oct 1, 2018 9:10:46 GMT
The problems are two; 1: HOW to actually do that? Seriously. warmachineuniversity.com/mw/index.php/File:Bulldoze_(B).pngAs you see, about 3 or 4 bases are able to get a large base's front arc. 4 is maximum and usually only 3 would do. It MAY possible to get 4 if you are lucky, but usually it is only 3. In the reality charge 5 troopers seems happens very rarely. Else it must be your second-line troopers and the target seems already rush through your vanguard. Anyway, if it actually happens in the real games, something is gone horribly wrong. 2: Then what about Trencher Infantry instead even if it actually happens? Even so, that about five Commandos are able to get the target at once, then why don't you pick Trencher Infantry and do the same? They are RNG 1, means in the same situation they surely make much, much more attacks than Commandos, and it means even if only 3 Commandos are reach to the target about 4 to 5(or even 6) Trencher Infantry are able to get the target in the meantime, and on the situation that 5 Commandos are able to get a target Trencher Infantry surely has 7 to 9 successful chargers instead. It means you don't need that much buffs than Commandos, with almost same cost. Then why you have to be bothered to give the melee buffs to the Commandos? Leave hard targets to the Trencher Infantry and Long Gunners and you better give the soft targets to the Commandos.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Oct 1, 2018 14:47:01 GMT
The problems are two; 1: HOW to actually do that? Seriously. warmachineuniversity.com/mw/index.php/File:Bulldoze_(B).pngAs you see, about 3 or 4 bases are able to get a large base's front arc. 4 is maximum and usually only 3 would do. It MAY possible to get 4 if you are lucky, but usually it is only 3. In the reality charge 5 troopers seems happens very rarely. Else it must be your second-line troopers and the target seems already rush through your vanguard. Anyway, if it actually happens in the real games, something is gone horribly wrong. 2: Then what about Trencher Infantry instead even if it actually happens? Even so, that about five Commandos are able to get the target at once, then why don't you pick Trencher Infantry and do the same? They are RNG 1, means in the same situation they surely make much, much more attacks than Commandos, and it means even if only 3 Commandos are reach to the target about 4 to 5(or even 6) Trencher Infantry are able to get the target in the meantime, and on the situation that 5 Commandos are able to get a target Trencher Infantry surely has 7 to 9 successful chargers instead. It means you don't need that much buffs than Commandos, with almost same cost. Then why you have to be bothered to give the melee buffs to the Commandos? Leave hard targets to the Trencher Infantry and Long Gunners and you better give the soft targets to the Commandos. Not sure how that photo you posted is relevant, and not sure why I need to post of a picture of something that you can easily do yourself at home with some bases or models, but here: i.imgur.com/ApgCdfI.jpgAs for why bring Commandos instead of more Trencher Infantry? We already discussed that a lot. There are many reasons why. If you are asking why use Commandos to charge a hard target when you also have Trencher Infantry in your list, then the answer is because sometimes you can't charge the Infantry in instead, sometimes you need the pathfinder, sometimes you need the accuracy.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Oct 1, 2018 15:05:23 GMT
The problem is, HOW. How so much troopers are able to catch it at only a round? I know that's an ideal position, but, in the reality, you are usually end up with not so enough range to get the target or you need to wait a turn and let the enemy to do something else. In your ideal position, two of them are able to see the target's back arc, but how you do that? Are your enemy really even let you to put it close enough to charge its side? All the times, or at least in the most times? I don't get it.
I know that you can put that much models if the enemy is rush through your crane-formation killbox. But how much opponents are fooled enough to do that in the reality? Well, if you are not bothered, can you share some experiences in your games?
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Oct 1, 2018 21:12:32 GMT
The problem is, HOW. How so much troopers are able to catch it at only a round? I know that's an ideal position, but, in the reality, you are usually end up with not so enough range to get the target or you need to wait a turn and let the enemy to do something else. In your ideal position, two of them are able to see the target's back arc, but how you do that? Are your enemy really even let you to put it close enough to charge its side? All the times, or at least in the most times? I don't get it. I know that you can put that much models if the enemy is rush through your crane-formation killbox. But how much opponents are fooled enough to do that in the reality? Well, if you are not bothered, can you share some experiences in your games? Because with Siege2 you can threat 14.5" with Commandos, and because part of that is a 3" non-linear movement, they can get really good angles. Because you have the option of bringing Anson Hitch so that you can have Tactician if you feel it is necessary. I can't give you many actual play by play specifics from games from memory, but I can tell you that it happens often enough with Siege2 that I can get 4 or 5 Commandos into a hard or important target. I guess one example I can give you is from WTC 2018 Round 4. I got 5 Trencher Commandos into melee with Borka2. Was Borka more exposed than he should have been? Probably. Was my opponent a bad player? Absolutely not. He is a very good player. He may have under-estimated the threat and threat range of Trencher Commandos, but that happens to even very good players. His Warcaster was effectively DEF14/ARM22, 18 boxes, tough, steady, 2 transfers. I activated models to make that effectively ARM 18, no tough. Trencher Infantry would have failed miserably here needing 7's to hit (you hit only 58% of those on average), whereas Commandos went in at MAT10 (conversely, a 92% hit rate). To compound that, most of the Commandos had to move through some rough terrain to get there; Infantry would have never made it. The Commandos with Fury and Mini-feat were swinging at POW14, just as high as Infantry. Lastly, the Commandos were going to be able to re-position to make room for a Trench Buster to charge in; Infantry would not have been able to do that either. To provide another example of when Commandos are useful in a way that Infantry are not, we can go to WTC2018 Round 3. I delivered several Commandos, with mini-feat, to spray the Eminent Configurator Orion, and several others to take Carbine shots at him. Those Commandos, one Express Team shot, and a Triumph gunshot killed Orion. Trencher Infantry would not have gotten that done.
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Post by midnight on Oct 2, 2018 2:25:32 GMT
Seriously, this is all good stuff. Between Juris, Droop, and the rest I think I'm beginning to get the GD theme.
Thanks to everyone for their knowledge.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Oct 2, 2018 2:50:43 GMT
The problem is, HOW. How so much troopers are able to catch it at only a round? I know that's an ideal position, but, in the reality, you are usually end up with not so enough range to get the target or you need to wait a turn and let the enemy to do something else. In your ideal position, two of them are able to see the target's back arc, but how you do that? Are your enemy really even let you to put it close enough to charge its side? All the times, or at least in the most times? I don't get it. I know that you can put that much models if the enemy is rush through your crane-formation killbox. But how much opponents are fooled enough to do that in the reality? Well, if you are not bothered, can you share some experiences in your games? Because with Siege2 you can threat 14.5" with Commandos, and because part of that is a 3" non-linear movement, they can get really good angles. Because you have the option of bringing Anson Hitch so that you can have Tactician if you feel it is necessary. I can't give you many actual play by play specifics from games from memory, but I can tell you that it happens often enough with Siege2 that I can get 4 or 5 Commandos into a hard or important target. I guess one example I can give you is from WTC 2018 Round 4. I got 5 Trencher Commandos into melee with Borka2. Was Borka more exposed than he should have been? Probably. Was my opponent a bad player? Absolutely not. He is a very good player. He may have under-estimated the threat and threat range of Trencher Commandos, but that happens to even very good players. His Warcaster was effectively DEF14/ARM22, 18 boxes, tough, steady, 2 transfers. I activated models to make that effectively ARM 18, no tough. Trencher Infantry would have failed miserably here needing 7's to hit (you hit only 58% of those on average), whereas Commandos went in at MAT10 (conversely, a 92% hit rate). To compound that, most of the Commandos had to move through some rough terrain to get there; Infantry would have never made it. The Commandos with Fury and Mini-feat were swinging at POW14, just as high as Infantry. Lastly, the Commandos were going to be able to re-position to make room for a Trench Buster to charge in; Infantry would not have been able to do that either. To provide another example of when Commandos are useful in a way that Infantry are not, we can go to WTC2018 Round 3. I delivered several Commandos, with mini-feat, to spray the Eminent Configurator Orion, and several others to take Carbine shots at him. Those Commandos, one Express Team shot, and a Triumph gunshot killed Orion. Trencher Infantry would not have gotten that done. So... thanks. Now I understand why you are actually did it. Although I still don't think that it is something in the real games out of Brisbane2, though. But consider he gives extra 3" advance out of the activation, it seems actually happens a lot in his list. A 10.5" threat range is not so difficult to avoid, but 13.5" include 3" free advance seems hard to deny however. But, anyway, isn't Trencher Infatry still have a good chance to charge the enemy? More vector means they are also have an advantage, and they stillhave RNG 1.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Oct 2, 2018 6:18:42 GMT
But, anyway, isn't Trencher Infatry still have a good chance to charge the enemy? More vector means they are also have an advantage, and they stillhave RNG 1. Of course they do, but that's entirely Juris's point. Both can get the job done and both have different niches. He's not advocating playing only Commandos because they blow Infantry out of the water, he's advocating playing both, because they both get work done and it's good to diversify lists instead of putting all your eggs in one basket. You were trying to argue that Trencher Infantry are head and shoulders above the Commandos in damage output because of threat ranges, he merely tried to refute your point and show that there is more to Commandos than raw damage output, just like there is more to Infantry than raw damage output.
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Post by cygnarstronk on Oct 2, 2018 23:33:14 GMT
As a side note, commandos can deliver a good cracking with pow 16 bombs thanks to A&H+minifeat from really far away under siege2, like 14 inches away just with desperate pace. anything ARM 19 or even 20 may well die to 10 pow 16 attacks. Problem with the commandos is that they do this trick just once, so you gotta use prey at your best. Honestly I like the infantry better, but a unit of commandos is a welcome addition.
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Post by anoddman on Oct 5, 2018 14:58:04 GMT
Because with Siege2 you can threat 14.5" with Commandos, and because part of that is a 3" non-linear movement, they can get really good angles. Because you have the option of bringing Anson Hitch so that you can have Tactician if you feel it is necessary. I can't give you many actual play by play specifics from games from memory, but I can tell you that it happens often enough with Siege2 that I can get 4 or 5 Commandos into a hard or important target. I guess one example I can give you is from WTC 2018 Round 4. I got 5 Trencher Commandos into melee with Borka2. Was Borka more exposed than he should have been? Probably. Was my opponent a bad player? Absolutely not. He is a very good player. He may have under-estimated the threat and threat range of Trencher Commandos, but that happens to even very good players. His Warcaster was effectively DEF14/ARM22, 18 boxes, tough, steady, 2 transfers. I activated models to make that effectively ARM 18, no tough. Trencher Infantry would have failed miserably here needing 7's to hit (you hit only 58% of those on average), whereas Commandos went in at MAT10 (conversely, a 92% hit rate). To compound that, most of the Commandos had to move through some rough terrain to get there; Infantry would have never made it. The Commandos with Fury and Mini-feat were swinging at POW14, just as high as Infantry. Lastly, the Commandos were going to be able to re-position to make room for a Trench Buster to charge in; Infantry would not have been able to do that either. To provide another example of when Commandos are useful in a way that Infantry are not, we can go to WTC2018 Round 3. I delivered several Commandos, with mini-feat, to spray the Eminent Configurator Orion, and several others to take Carbine shots at him. Those Commandos, one Express Team shot, and a Triumph gunshot killed Orion. Trencher Infantry would not have gotten that done. So... thanks. Now I understand why you are actually did it. Although I still don't think that it is something in the real games out of Brisbane2, though. But consider he gives extra 3" advance out of the activation, it seems actually happens a lot in his list. A 10.5" threat range is not so difficult to avoid, but 13.5" include 3" free advance seems hard to deny however. But, anyway, isn't Trencher Infatry still have a good chance to charge the enemy? More vector means they are also have an advantage, and they stillhave RNG 1. A WTC game doesn’t constitute a real game? The best answer is take both. That’s what many people do.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Oct 5, 2018 16:26:21 GMT
So... thanks. Now I understand why you are actually did it. Although I still don't think that it is something in the real games out of Brisbane2, though. But consider he gives extra 3" advance out of the activation, it seems actually happens a lot in his list. A 10.5" threat range is not so difficult to avoid, but 13.5" include 3" free advance seems hard to deny however. But, anyway, isn't Trencher Infatry still have a good chance to charge the enemy? More vector means they are also have an advantage, and they stillhave RNG 1. A WTC game doesn’t constitute a real game? The best answer is take both. That’s what many people do. To be fair, I think he was saying "outside of playing Siege2, I don't think that happens very often on the table." I'm inclined to agree with that statement. Siege2 really makes Commandos shine. It's possible, certainly, with other lists. In fact, Haley3 can make it happen by virtue of forcing your opponent to over-extend their army to deal with yours. My experience is primarily in delivering Commandos with Siege2, and in that list it works wonderfully. Also, that is 100% my point and takeaway from this; bring both. I play both with Siege2 and love it.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Oct 6, 2018 7:44:17 GMT
As Juris said. With Brisbane2 it seems totally possible, but I think that they are not able to make it on the hands of the other casters. And as he said above his point is to do it by Brisbane2, not the others.
Anyway Brisbane2 seems one of the perfect leader of Trenchers.
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Post by onijet01 on Oct 6, 2018 13:30:57 GMT
As Juris said. With Brisbane2 it seems totally possible, but I think that they are not able to make it on the hands of the other casters. And as he said above his point is to do it by Brisbane2, not the others. Anyway Brisbane2 seems one of the perfect leader of Trenchers. Wha5 about stryker 2? I know he can not grat full units a buff but positive charge is always good with cheap fast warkacks to offer a way to spread more damage out if needed.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Oct 6, 2018 18:02:25 GMT
Fury gives you more damage roll than Positive Charge, and Positive Charge requires you to put a warjack near of them. Also, Stryker2 lacks the method to deliver them BEFORE making a charge attack, which is the point to actually have at least 4+ chargers by RNG 0.5" melee weapon.
Also, his feat is there for killing the enemy front line then rush through their second line to kill more, and is good against enemy units, not jacks.
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